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**H Tower** · September 12, 2003, 16:22

Comments on Siro plan

Originally posted by HTower
The first thing that jumps out at me is that we have 18 positions! so far only 15 people have voted yes in the poll for this thread, a difficulty to say the least.

Originally posted by Siro

Hmm....

Good point

Perhaps people could double at some parts ?

For instance, Rabin was for a long time both the PM and MoDefence and MoEconomy for Israel.

Obviously the same person can not sit in different government structures. (IE, one person can take several places in the govt, but you can't be both in the govt, a judge, and in the IDF).

There's a mistake made about the appointment of the Chief of Staff. The defense minister description says that he appoints the Chief, however the Chief description says that he is appointed by the Prime Minister.

Originally posted by Siro

Admittedly an error. I think i'll go to the defense chief.

Corps Commanders: I hate the idea of this so much it makes my blood boil when someone says that it would work. Let's say that we're laying a huge offensive on into Egypt. We have a few naval vessels that will be used for shore bombardment wherever the Army needs them, a Marine contingent to move along the coast, the Air Force to also provide support to the army, and finally the army itself. Now, for maximum success, the Army should push itself into Egypt as far as it can easily go, then use the Airforce to bust a whole in the Egyptian lines, then the army can move through the hole in the enemy lines until they get to the next roadblock, the navy takes care of that one, and then the army moves again. Sounds good, right? Well that just took 5 posted save files to get done, now consider that all of the fronts have some kind of combined arms operation going on, we would have 20-30 posted save files for only 1 turn! It would be chaos! Corp commanders are a TERRIBLE IDEA.

Originally posted by Siro

Wow there.

I thought of a completely different process there.

IMO there would only be 1 game playing session, during which several people are discussing the game, and only 1 person interacts with the actual save file - the PM.

The corps commanders are meant to input their opinion about tactical plans.

For example:
S.W. front commander: Hey, airforce commander, I need air support, quickly!
A.F commander: I'm sorry I promised all my bombers to the northern and eastern fronts. I can give you 2 attack planes, and that's it.

(a minute later)
A.F. commander to Defense minister: we need more planes.
MoD: ok.
MoD to MoInterior: Build me a plane, near the southern front.
MoI: I can't.
MoD to PM and Chief of staff: Make the MoI build a plane near the souther front.
Everybody to the MoI: build a plane!!!
MoI: ok... ok...

Settlers: The Economy minister is in charge of settlers working for the public works, but the Interior minister is in charge of building new cities, dual ownership of the engineers???

Originally posted by Siro

no. The economy minister is in charge of settlers in all actions but building new cities. The interior minister orders to build Herzelia in sqaure 55,39, and the economy ministers says to the PM: hmmm, we have 4 settlers... ok, move the one on the left to 55,39 and make him build a city. Now, the rest 3 will be making a road...

The Court: The high Justice can overthrow an elected official without a vote???

Originally posted by Siro

Yes, assuming a trial finds that someone has made a very serious offense, I think it's justifiable.

The Court formulates new laws, so now we are putting the people who rule on points of law, creating the law? Whatever happened to the system of checks and balances? What kind of laws are we talking about here anyways?

Originally posted by Siro

no no no.

The minister of justice formulates the law. He doesn't necessarily invent it. But he is the one responsible to write all the legal terms and things.

He's also the one that declares a law accepted or not (based on a poll which he posts of course, not his personal opinion), and then copies it to the "Israel law" section.

He's basically the government authority responsible for managing law making in the forums (ie, helps people who have law ideas to formulate them into a law suggestion, posts approval polls, and declares whether they have won or lost).

Comtroller: He makes criticisms of the game? Won't we all be criticiszing bad decisions, military operations? Can't anyone file a complaint with the court?

Originally posted by Siro

yes, it's true. however, I think that there also should be a person whose job function is exactly this. While the usual players can do that if they want, he has a role to do it.

Because if for instance we are all held up in excitement about some military operation, it's his reponsability to try and find errors whether in the process or the content itself.

I think we need such an official "troll" that would seek problems and comment on them.

I think he also should be the one leading public investigations against embezelling officials.

Midlevel ministers: How are Defense, Interior, Economy, Justices, Foriegn ministers selected?

Originally posted by Siro

my language wasn't clear. point taken.

They are selected by the PM that wins. They can be selected before or after the elections. better before IMO.

In the first CivIII DG we had each minister elected. That worked poorly, since sometimes you'd have conflicts. Half of the govt was peacefull and expansionist, half war like and perfectionist... .

Of course I don't know how it was solved, since I left after a few months.

Wrapping it up: I'd like to hear more about how elections and court cases would work, like what kind of cases would there be, types of rulings that could be handed out, etc, etc.

Originally posted by Siro

Ok.

Elections (so far)
Declared by the President, once per set time, or following fall of government.

Each party presents a candidate. (Parties are registered at the President, according to specific laws)

Candidates are noted, and then the president makes a general elections poll. (for how long and other details, later)

Each candidate may (or if we decide, will be required to) present the government he will appoint.

*The candidate from the largest party (even if most people voted against it) is selected by the president to be the PM.

*(some of you may ask for a second round, but I remind you that we can't have a second round between parties, only between people. that's how it works in Israel)

The PM appoints his ministers (what happens if he presented X but later apponts Y? i dunno. suggest)

After X days, the PM and his govt, take over.

Elections for President

Elected less often than the government.

Elections are declared and called by the Justice Minister (someone has to, and it can't be neither himself nor Judges, since the President appoints judges).

Elected from personal candidates (while the PM must be a leader of the party, the president doesn't have to even be in a party. He can't lead a party, because he can't be PM and President at the same time).

Appoints the comptroller and historians as he sees fit / popular vote. I don't know really. I think that he can post polls, but doesn't have to. so if he has a clear idea who he wants - he can do it. I am afraid we'll have more votes than people.

Justice system
judges and the high justice appointed by the president. I have no idea on what intervals, or whether it's for life or not. awaitign suggestions.

any person can petition the court about any issue. The court is bound by the laws and the site rules.

Each person is responsible for defending himself but can appoint a council (though it'll be messy).

The justice minister is usually the representative of the government (he deals with legal bussiness, so that the other ministers can continue planning / playing the game, unless ordered otherwise by the court).

The judges can make several demands - to freeze the gameplay, to freeze polls, to interview people, to watch chat transcripts and so on.

The judges can invalidate elections or polls and make decisions over which side is correct, and which is wrong. Their decision is final, until an appeals court finds a difference.

The judges must document the process, give time to people to prepare speeches and finally explain their decision.

Appeals court
The appeals court is resided by the high justice, who can ask the other justice (the one not active in original case) to assist him. However, while the high justice can ask for advice, he is not bound by it, and only his decision counts.

The high justice can read the previous court decision and overturn it or support it. But he can't directly question the previous judge. Everything the previous judge had to say, must be in the documented case.

High court
Cases which could affect the government / presidency, are automatically judged by a panel of 3 justices, with the High justice being in charge of the process (but only has 1 vote in the final decision).

Elections of Judges / President in Trial

If the president was sued in a potencial case of overthrow, and the justices decided to keep him, they must later stand to be re-elected by the parliament. in elections which are organized and supervised by the Minister of Justice.

This is the only case the parliament can vote for the judges, which are otherwise appointed by the President.

Why?

Because if they chose to leave a President in place, he may find himself to be biased in their favour, and automatically prolong their careers, choosing them over and over.

Warfare
The actual game will be performed only by the PM.

However, the MoD will be responsible for making threads about strategical / tactical maneuvers and planning warfare policy. The MoD will also make requests of the ministers reponsible, to build units, research techs, make alliances and so forth.

The Chief of Staff is responsible for the purely tactical side of warfare. He's the final authority on what unit goes where, and finalizies plans. He can ask the MoD for more units / intelligence / what ever.

The Chief of Staff should delegate planning authority, and real time tactical decisions, to the regional commands (though he can intervene).

The regional commands are assigned X troops by the Chief of staff, and are in charge of planning and giving orders where to move them.

The goal of that, is that each front, will have it's own amount of units, and will be able to make it's own plans of actions, with the Chief of Staff overseeing it, giving final advice, and maybe relocating units from one battle front to another.

The Air Corps and Navy Corps, are needed IMO because these are unique units, which provide battle support to regular grunts. They are more expensive and exist in smaller numbers, but have a high rate of movement (can quickly change battle fronts, if necessary).

The corps leader has X planes, and out of that, can decide how many planes he sends to the north, how many to the south etc.

Originally posted by conmcb25
I agree with H Tower on this one. Give all the units on a front to the front commander, we dont have enough people for all these positions. Just my two cents worth!

**EmuGod** · September 12, 2003, 16:28

I also have a plan which is similar to H Tower's plan. I'll try to get it up.

**H Tower** · September 12, 2003, 16:32

More Comments On Siro Plan

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

Elections (so far)
Declared by the President, once per set time, or following fall of government.

Each party presents a candidate. (Parties are registered at the President, according to specific laws)

Candidates are noted, and then the president makes a general elections poll. (for how long and other details, later)

Each candidate may (or if we decide, will be required to) present the government he will appoint.

*The candidate from the largest party (even if most people voted against it) is selected by the president to be the PM.

*(some of you may ask for a second round, but I remind you that we can't have a second round between parties, only between people. that's how it works in Israel)

The PM appoints his ministers (what happens if he presented X but later apponts Y? i dunno. suggest)

After X days, the PM and his govt, take over.

Originally posted by Yaroslav
So, if I understand it correctly, your plot is to have a direct election on the PM and the Presidente. It's ok for me, but also could be interesting to have a Parlameint. However, a Parlameint means more players, and we've no a high number of them.

BTW, I think that if the PM don't appoint the minister I said he will appoint, it's upon the public to call for an election. I think that there should be a 'impeachment' process that could be initiated with enough citiziens votes. It will be better way, if there is no Parlameint.

Elections for President

Elected less often than the government.

Elections are declared and called by the Justice Minister (someone has to, and it can't be neither himself nor Judges, since the President appoints judges).

Elected from personal candidates (while the PM must be a leader of the party, the president doesn't have to even be in a party. He can't lead a party, because he can't be PM and President at the same time).

Appoints the comptroller and historians as he sees fit / popular vote. I don't know really. I think that he can post polls, but doesn't have to. so if he has a clear idea who he wants - he can do it. I am afraid we'll have more votes than people.

If we don't have Parlameint, I think that the better way is direct election. However, I will say that the President also must to have a "impeachment" process if necesary.

quote:

Justice system
judges and the high justice appointed by the president. I have no idea on what intervals, or whether it's for life or not. awaitign suggestions.

any person can petition the court about any issue. The court is bound by the laws and the site rules.

Each person is responsible for defending himself but can appoint a council (though it'll be messy).

The justice minister is usually the representative of the government (he deals with legal bussiness, so that the other ministers can continue planning / playing the game, unless ordered otherwise by the court).

The judges can make several demands - to freeze the gameplay, to freeze polls, to interview people, to watch chat transcripts and so on.

The judges can invalidate elections or polls and make decisions over which side is correct, and which is wrong. Their decision is final, until an appeals court finds a difference.

The judges must document the process, give time to people to prepare speeches and finally explain their decision.

Appeals court
The appeals court is resided by the high justice, who can ask the other justice (the one not active in original case) to assist him. However, while the high justice can ask for advice, he is not bound by it, and only his decision counts.

The high justice can read the previous court decision and overturn it or support it. But he can't directly question the previous judge. Everything the previous judge had to say, must be in the documented case.

High court
Cases which could affect the government / presidency, are automatically judged by a panel of 3 justices, with the High justice being in charge of the process (but only has 1 vote in the final decision).

Elections of Judges / President in Trial

If the president was sued in a potencial case of overthrow, and the justices decided to keep him, they must later stand to be re-elected by the parliament. in elections which are organized and supervised by the Minister of Justice.

This is the only case the parliament can vote for the judges, which are otherwise appointed by the President.

Why?

Because if they chose to leave a President in place, he may find himself to be biased in their favour, and automatically prolong their careers, choosing them over and over.

Very interesting. However, it is also very complex. I suggest to have only a judge for all instances, apointed by the President. If the President itselft is in trial, a new judge should be elected by direct vote. I think that the judge should stay in "power" the same time that the president, altough it can be confirmed by the next president and reamins in his/her role. What do you think?

Warfare
The actual game will be performed only by the PM.

However, the MoD will be responsible for making threads about strategical / tactical maneuvers and planning warfare policy. The MoD will also make requests of the ministers reponsible, to build units, research techs, make alliances and so forth.

The Chief of Staff is responsible for the purely tactical side of warfare. He's the final authority on what unit goes where, and finalizies plans. He can ask the MoD for more units / intelligence / what ever.

The Chief of Staff should delegate planning authority, and real time tactical decisions, to the regional commands (though he can intervene).

The regional commands are assigned X troops by the Chief of staff, and are in charge of planning and giving orders where to move them.

The goal of that, is that each front, will have it's own amount of units, and will be able to make it's own plans of actions, with the Chief of Staff overseeing it, giving final advice, and maybe relocating units from one battle front to another.

The Air Corps and Navy Corps, are needed IMO because these are unique units, which provide battle support to regular grunts. They are more expensive and exist in smaller numbers, but have a high rate of movement (can quickly change battle fronts, if necessary).

The corps leader has X planes, and out of that, can decide how many planes he sends to the north, how many to the south etc.

I would agree that the Chief of Staff also should coordinate the work of all fronts, because it's very difficult to say when a front start and when a front ends (it's not as clear as in other games)

BTW, I've sent another PM to DanQ, telling him about my last PM and asking him if he has received it (maybe there was a problem!). I'm still waiting for an answer.

Thank you all for your patience

**H Tower** · September 12, 2003, 16:47

Comments on HTower Plan

Originally posted by Emugod
Just to add to the proposal posted by H Tower, the knesset should also include the Israeli President, who would be in charge of making sure that the other members of knesset are doing their jobs correctly and will manage the sub-forum when it is created.

The Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces could also be included. The Chief of Staff would be responsible for creating a general strategy for the war and would manage the airforce and navy. The chief of Staff would also coordinate efforts with the front leaders to make sure that the war is being fought effectively on all fronts.

Originally posted by HTower

IDF
Generals only command troops, no cities and no zion workers unless specially worked out with the Minister of Infrastructure and settlement

Northern Front - Golan Heights and Lebanon
Judean Front - Haifa to Netanyah to Jerico to Tiberius
Jerusalem\South East Front - West Jerusalem to Eilat (stretching along the border with Jordan)
Gaza Front - Ashdod, Gevaram, Tekumah

Originally posted by Yaroslav
I like those fronts, but there should be some kind of cooperation 'cause, for instance, Tiberius could be considered part of the Norther Front instead of Judean Front. I suggest that the Prime Minister puls the front commander should start with your suggested fronts and do little changes when needed

KNESSET
Minister of Immigration - In charge of bringing in immigrants from Cyprus and Saudi Arabia
Prime Minister - Plays the end of turn, person in charge, appoints Generals
Minister of Infrastructure and settlement - Controls city build queues, and zion workers.
Minister of Economy and Science - Sets the science/tax/luxury rate approves all rushbuys. Manages the treasury

I agree with that. However I have a minor suggestion: we can merge the minister of Immigration and Minister of Infraestructure in one single ministery if no enough people volunter to be part of goverment.

Mossad - Efficiency experts, keeping track if cities are being optimally used?

[color=red]

We maybe would get Mossad unit later on the game, so I think that he will be the one who moves the units. Until we get mossad unit, he can coordinate the spy efforts (you know, when we do a little trip in order to see where the foe units are)

Deputy Ministers - Fill in ministers that are absent, those on vacation, etc, etc.

I think that we don't need deputy ministers. We can get replacements if needed, but this is only my opinion.

Admiral - Not neccesary IMO since the minister of immigration controls the transports and our small navy can be controlled by the generals who have ships along their front

I agree. The fleet should be divide and assigned to the North or the Gaza front.

ORDER OF TURN PLAY

1st: Prime Minister
2nd: Northern Front
2nd: Judea Front
2nd: Jerusalem Front
2nd: Gaza Front
2nd: Minister of Immigration
2nd: Minister of Infrastructure and Settlement
3rd: Minister of Economy and Science
4th: Mossad (optional)
5th: Prime Minister

All of the positions that are noted as 2nd are interchangeable, they can be played in any order. Order will be maintained through use of a turn thread, where ministers and generals are allowed to sign in and sign out the save. See the Red Front Demo Game for example.

I like that order!

ATTAINMENT OF POSITIONS
Prime Minister - Every 6 game months, an election will be held. Votes of no confidence can occur at any time. Simple majority rules in both cases.

Direct election? Or should be elect the Knesset member and then they would elect the PM?

Generals - Chosen by the Prime Minister, serve at the Prime Minister's pleasure.

Yes, of, course. The generals should be under the control of the prime minister.

Knesset offices - Selected by Rpime Minister. (I imagine that some back room dealing will go on between parties to chose a Prime Minister, here's where the reward to the other party comes in).
Deputies - Selected by the office holder.
Mossad - Selected by Prime Minister, serves at his pleasure.

I agree with that.

Originally posted by HTower
MY COMMENTS ON MY PROPOSAL:
-This may be a bit too ambitious for us, as of 12 hours ago, there were only 11 of us who had sent Dan a pm, and my plan calls for at least 8 positions.
-It's been a long time since I played this scenario, I may have completely butchered what a Front should be, in fact, they aren't really fronts since the enemy is all around us and between us, perhaps they should be called military districts instead...
-This isn't a revolutionary style of government I've set up exactly, most of it I've ripped from the Red Front Demo Game with a few changes. For other styles of civ2 government, check out
regular civ2 demo game
Military branch of Red Front DG government
Political side of Red Front DG government

-Oh yeah, if someone knows of a website that shows Israeli medals, we need to get someone working on adapting them for our game use, where we can award them to people who have distinguished themselves in our game. Check out the Red Front DG medals here

**PinkyGen** · September 12, 2003, 17:15

HTower, I favor your government plan, because it has worked well for Red Front, and I think Siro's plan is overly complex. I do have a few questions.

1. Is the Minister of Immigration similiar to a front command? I ask this because obviously he will have control over transports and the immigrant units themselves. However, both the Cyprus route and the Saudi are open to enemy attacks. For sea routes, the Minister might need naval forces such as gunboats. Also, Saudi Arabia can be done by both sea and land, but if done by land, some armed units will be needed to get blocking Arabs out of the way.

2. How is the Prime Minister Selected?
A. Is the election direct just a poll in a thread?
B. Or are we selecting a Knesset first, and then having that Knesset choose the Prime Minister, and then the Prime Minister has to be able to select a cabinet out of those elected to the Knesset?

I think option B allows for some wheeling dealing between the parties that are springing up. For example, one smaller party could support somebody from another party for Prime Minister, and in return for their support, get a prestigious post.

3. If we have a Knesset, how big should it be? Should there be enough so that some members elected may not get a government post, but instead form an opposition? Or perhaps there will be enough government posts that if enough people from the Government decide they don't like the state of affairs, they can vote to bring down the government?
Remember, Israeli elections happen frequently because governments fall.

(I think we should try to keep Knesset small, since we need military commanders as well, and it would be a waste to disqualify someone from command if they are in the Knesset but only as the loyal opposition).

**EmuGod** · September 13, 2003, 12:32

About the knesset, that's what I'm working on right now, PinkyGen.

**Panag** · September 13, 2003, 16:38

hi ,

the " mossad " needs to be attached to the PM's office , ........

have a nice day

**H Tower** · September 14, 2003, 15:50

Originally posted by panag
hi ,

the " mossad " needs to be attached to the PM's office , ........

have a nice day

that's all you have to say?

How about a suggestion on what the Mossad would do? How about contributing ANYTHING to topic?

**Panag** · September 14, 2003, 15:56

Originally posted by H Tower

that's all you have to say?

How about a suggestion on what the Mossad would do? How about contributing ANYTHING to topic?

do you really want an answer to that ,.....

the pot better looks to the kettle before it says its black , ......

what would the mossad do , well think about it , what do they do , they collect intel , .....

and what could they do in the game , collect all the goodie huts asap without loosing to many , .....

gather intel on villages & cities etc , .....

bye

**H Tower** · September 14, 2003, 16:51

Originally posted by panag

How about a suggestion on what the Mossad would do? How about contributing ANYTHING to topic?

do you really want an answer to that ,.....

YES. the idea is for people to talk about how the government we will be forming will act.

the pot better looks to the kettle before it says its black , ......

So you're saying I haven't contributed anything to the topic? Have you looked at the first couple posts where I laid out all the current government proposals? Did you look at who wrote one the proposals? Did you bother reading the thread before responding?

what would the mossad do , well think about it , what do they do , they collect intel , .....

and what could they do in the game , collect all the goodie huts asap without loosing to many , .....

gather intel on villages & cities etc , .....

So you think that the Mossad should control all diplomats and spies then? And have military units under their control as well that will be used soley for popping goody huts? And by gathering information does that also mean controlling planes which will perform reconnasaince? Do you see what I driving at here? SPECIFICS are what we need on what each minister/general/member of the government will do. That way we won't have people fighting each other on who does what instead of fighting the arabs. Stuff needs to be described not just in lofty terms of a "real-world" government but how each position will act when it looks at the save file, plays part of the turn, and reports back to the rest of the game people.

**Panag** · September 14, 2003, 16:57

Originally posted by H Tower

do you really want an answer to that ,.....

YES. the idea is for people to talk about how the government we will be forming will act.

So you're saying I haven't contributed anything to the topic? Have you looked at the first couple posts where I laid out all the current government proposals? Did you look at who wrote one the proposals? Did you bother reading the thread before responding?

So you think that the Mossad should control all diplomats and spies then? And have military units under their control as well that will be used soley for popping goody huts? And by gathering information does that also mean controlling planes which will perform reconnasaince? Do you see what I driving at here? SPECIFICS are what we need on what each minister/general/member of the government will do. That way we won't have people fighting each other on who does what instead of fighting the arabs. Stuff needs to be described not just in lofty terms of a "real-world" government but how each position will act when it looks at the save file, plays part of the turn, and reports back to the rest of the game people. [/QUOTE]

read before you jump to conclusions and start to attack someone in public , .........

**H Tower** · September 14, 2003, 21:24

Originally posted by panag
read before you jump to conclusions and start to attack someone in public , .........

the fact that I respond to every single one of your points isn't an indicator of having read them?

Oh yes, back to the wounded, crying in a fetal position defense.

**atawa** · September 15, 2003, 03:09

Can't you people kiss and make up?
This forum is hardly the place to fight presonal battles.......

**Sirotnikov** · September 15, 2003, 03:24

Panag, you dirty hag

Shutup, stop messing around and messing with everyone.

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