The Tale of the Years 1853 - 1863.

[Sparrowhawk]

Originally posted by cavebear

Agreed, it is what I was trying to learn with the (sadly) ambushed Caravel.

But I think the area that Bloody Monk refers to is the area between Utica and Kildeer which we could explore without going near the Zulus (and i would be happy if we leave the Zulus alone for now). If we explore this area in between, we might find out how far the Egyptian lands extend and maybe where the Sioux are.

And I seem to recall someone previously mentioning that the Celt homeland was to the West of our Colony.

I recall that, too, though I wonder how it was known. IIRC, it was because we sighted a Celtic ship heading east through Apolytonia waters.

And I recall that Bloody Monk used the "Find City" option (for Wonder Cities to determine where the Celts were located). (While I don't use "Find City" much myself, I am more then happy to use the information obtained by those that do (the reason I don't use it is that I find the results confusing usually)

BTW, glad to see you are still here, Monk. Your earlier post had me concerned.

Agreed as I also wondered.
One of the reasons I suggested to Bloody Monk that he check out this forum and game is that the General Forum has slowed down lately, and this game needs new members (I actually sent out reminders of the game to several other former players as well) and another reason is that he is a regular poster and not shy about giving opinions (in the Succession Games at least...I recall being told I needed to "get a pair" at one point I think ). I look forward to the rest of this month and seeing what next month (and a new cabinet) brings

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by cavebear
Agreed, it is what I was trying to learn with the (sadly) ambushed Caravel.

Really??

'Splain to us how you explore something in the West by moving several turns in an Eastward direction??

Monk

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by cavebear
Monk -

First, I should mention that the "cool" smiley at the end of my posts is a sort of signature (a personal joke that I have to wear glasses to see the computer screen), not a comment. You had no way of knowing that, and I now realize that the smiley could be misinterpreted.

Second, the "wink" smiley was not meant to be sarcastic; I guess it should have been a regular smile.

Third, if I made some errors in play, you are right to point them out. I do not take that personally, nor were my comments to you meant in that way. I followed the various Ministerial recommendations as well as I could collect them and as closely as I could. There were some conflicting desires (that's normal). We want Settlers for new cities, but we also want our cities to grow large enough to celebrate them to size 8. We want enough gold at one time to rush infrastucture, but we also want to keep our gold below 50. We want Caravels to explore, but we also want them busy carrying Caravans for gold and beakers. I'm sure you would have played out the recommendations differently, as would anyone else. That's OK, too.

Fourth, I don't think I criticized your polls. I thought they were good ones.

Fifth, You are quite correct that I should have spent down our gold faster and that the Gunpowder would have cost us less. I wish I had. That was a mistake.

Sixth, I hope your last sentence doesn't mean you are leaving. I said I was impressed and I meant it.

Now, let's take the situation as it stands and go on from there. If starting the Colosseums in so many cities was a mistake, help me get us out of it. Perhaps some of them should be switched to Barracks. Perhaps there are other solutions.

Thank you for the clarification, especially about the smilies. They seemed very in my face.

And what I meant when I said I did not understand (and still do not) is how it is okay to use as a predicate for some decision, a course of action specifically rejected by a Poll. That's why I used the word blatant. Is this okay?? And if so, why have polls at all?? And please don't take this as a challenge; I really do not understand. Also, I'm NOT referring to differences in game style or choices.

Why should I not conclude from this that the President is allowed to do whatever he wants and then justify his actions later with excuses that fly in the face of the polls?? I know I have, essentially, asked this question three times now with varying degrees of pointedness, and if I have gone too far, I am sorry, but I really don't understand all this excuse making when you (at least to me) clearly did something opposite to the vote of the people.

Monk

[Bloody Monk]

Sparrowhawk,

Did I really say that?? An unfortunate choice of words, I am sure. For clearly, you do not now lack for anything.

Monk

[cavebear]

Originally posted by Sparrowhawk


But I think the area that Bloody Monk refers to is the area between Utica and Kildeer which we could explore without going near the Zulus (and i would be happy if we leave the Zulus alone for now). If we explore this area in between, we might find out how far the Egyptian lands extend and maybe where the Sioux are.

Damn! I do recall discussion about moving the former Salt Caravel along that shore before sending it back to Aploytonia. Sorry about that. I had in mind that our Explorer would do that and forgot the original coastal exploration. Mea Culpa!

I recall that, too, though I wonder how it was known. IIRC, it was because we sighted a Celtic ship heading east through Apolytonia waters.
[/QUOTE]

And I recall that Bloody Monk used the "Find City" option (for Wonder Cities to determine where the Celts were located). (While I don't use "Find City" much myself, I am more then happy to use the information obtained by those that do (the reason I don't use it is that I find the results confusing usually)

I don't use it myself, but I should remember that others do. I will try and remember to get information for us all that way (civ rest my soul).

One of the reasons I suggested to Bloody Monk that he check out this forum and game is that the General Forum has slowed down lately, and this game needs new members (I actually sent out reminders of the game to several other former players as well) and another reason is that he is a regular poster and not shy about giving opinions (in the Succession Games at least...I recall being told I needed to "get a pair" at one point I think ). I look forward to the rest of this month and seeing what next month (and a new cabinet) brings

I am perfectly willing to admit my errors, take my lumps at my play, and take advice from everyone. Monk is not the first or only assertive participant to grace our democracy games. I value people who agree with me and I value people who don't. And I especially want someone else to take over as Consul next month! I think Monk is a valued participant, and he has the opportunity to make an impact on our game. I'm glad he is here.

[cavebear]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk


Really??

'Splain to us how you explore something in the West by moving several turns in an Eastward direction??

Monk

I went east because I had some requests to find larger cities to trade with and that seemed the closest possibility. There could have been a size 12 city around the next promotory. And I knew the next Apolytonian Caravel would be going west anyway.

[Bloody Monk]

Closer than one turn away??

Monk

[cavebear]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk


Thank you for the clarification, especially about the smilies. They seemed very in my face.

If I get "in your face", it will be obvious. I don't generally do that, though.

And what I meant when I said I did not understand (and still do not) is how it is okay to use as a predicate for some decision, a course of action specifically rejected by a Poll. That's why I used the word blatant. Is this okay?? And if so, why have polls at all?? And please don't take this as a challenge; I really do not understand. Also, I'm NOT referring to differences in game style or choices.

All I can say is that I look at all the recommendations and follow them and try to balance the conflicting ones. If you look at the totality of the polls, I followed them pretty closely. There were some I could not (due to conflicting results), and there were probably some that I did not becuase I lost track of them. But I followed the majority of them and made some decisions about the rest. That's my job as Consul.

You seem to be assuming that I willfully went against polled decisions. That is not the case. I welcome your questions, because it gives me an opportunity to explain my game-play. That doesn't mean it is possible to follow all polls and recommendations. I explained some of the conflictions in a previous post. I had hoped that would clarify things.

We can continue fighting about this if you want, but I hope that is not necessary. Let me put this very clearly; your's were not the ONLY recommendations I recieved and some of them were mutually exclusive. I made some choices between conflicting ones.

Can we go forward now?

Why should I not conclude from this that the President is allowed to do whatever he wants and then justify his actions later with excuses that fly in the face of the polls?? I know I have, essentially, asked this question three times now with varying degrees of pointedness, and if I have gone too far, I am sorry, but I really don't understand all this excuse making when you (at least to me) clearly did something opposite to the vote of the people.

And I have answered your questions several times. Apparently, apologizing is not enough for you. Nor are explanations of the reasons for my actions. I have explained my actions and errors sufficiently.

Actually, the Consul has great powers of personal decision. We set the governments up that way. As governments become more representative, the leader has less power. The Citizens wanted it that way this time and I have followed their desire. In Despotism, there was no Citizen input. In Monarchy, there was more, but it was limited. In Republic, there is still more.

In spite of that, I choose to TRY to follow the wishes of the Ministers and Citizens, but I am not required to do so. I will state one last time that I do try to follow those wishes and when I do not it is through either error or a change in conditions.

Time to change the subject, comprende'?

[Bloody Monk]

Oh, so instead of addressing the singular point why and how it is possible to justify something that a poll said not to do....

You do a dance, give an angry face, and a demand to change the subject.

Since I clearly do not understand the roll of polls and Minister Reports, I feel it would be best for me to step aside and let someone else show me, by example, how it is done. Here I thought it was an impeachable offense to disregard a vote of the people; I clearly do not understand; clearly, I was not qualified for office.

And clearly I have little ability for communication. Never did I ask for an apology, just an explanation...which, til now, I have yet to receive. Nobody voted for that option and you are proud of doing it anyway.

And I don't get it.

Monk

[cavebear]

I'm done with trying to answer the same complaint over and over again...

On to the next round of polls...

[MrWhereItsAt]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk
Oh, so instead of addressing the singular point why and how it is possible to justify something that a poll said not to do....

You do a dance, give an angry face, and a demand to change the subject.

Since I clearly do not understand the roll of polls and Minister Reports, I feel it would be best for me to step aside and let someone else show me, by example, how it is done. Here I thought it was an impeachable offense to disregard a vote of the people; I clearly do not understand; clearly, I was not qualified for office.

And clearly I have little ability for communication. Never did I ask for an apology, just an explanation...which, til now, I have yet to receive. Nobody voted for that option and you are proud of doing it anyway.

And I don't get it.

Monk

BM, please! We're getting all upset and we needn't be. Cavey's style of posting has been consistent the 2.5 years I have been involved in the Civ2 DG, and he is not one to try to spite anyone. Please take this on trust. ( = friendly smiley) He has explained himself, and admitted a mistake or two. What more are you asking for?

The Consulship is a hard job to do, especially where there ARE conflicts in what we idiots vote for (when we remember to vote, that is... . It is natural that the turnplayer has a little leeway when situations come up that are not forseen in polling, and in interpreting conflicting orders. I think cavey generally does a good job at this, far better than me whenever I have been Consul/President/Despot or whatever. But at the same time I know how much work needs to go into polls, and in making the options as careful as possible to try to avoid ambiguities. I applaud you for your recent efforts there - it is clear that having a great strategic knowledge of the game really makes a difference when making up polls, something I sadly lack.

The DG here is still a little bit lead from the top. That's just the result of a game where not EVERYthing can be polled on. The President of the Civ3 DG in its heyday was essentially powerless, as you had extremely detailed Minister polls on every facet of the game and turnchats, where all Ministers and citizens were in chat with you as you played, so there was never anything that was not decided via Democracy. However here, with fewer participants and no real-time discussions as in chat the Consul has to just do their best. If you have an idea how we can improve this then please tell us! I'd certainly be interested.

And finally, if we citizens are unhappy with the job that cavey is doing, then we should let him know, and impeach if and as necessary. So far BM has expressed his displeasure. I ask that anyone else concerned please let us know as well, because this is a serious issue. If there are others worried about having their votes disregarded, then we have a problem to deal with and we'll need to change things. If not, then can we just take it as accepted that most of those who voted do not feel that their voices are not shaping the game?

Cheers.

[Bloody Monk]

Thank you MWIA, for your words; and thank you all for a very interesting and, for the most part, enjoyable time. I do not wish to be the cause of anyone's distress and I apologise to anyone offended by my efforts.

I clearly do not understand how this thing works. It is unnecessary, and would be unwise, to let my confusion upset everyone else's experience. I, therefore, feel compelled to withdraw from Ministry duties. Enjoy your game.

Monk

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by cavebear
I'm done with trying to answer the same complaint over and over again...

It's not a complaint; it's a question. How can you do something that a poll specifically rejected?? A simple question. Instead of a direct answer, you issued forth with masses of words, most of which were about something else entirely, and NONE of them in direct response to my question. Now you may think that forms an answer, but it is merely a response. One repeated statement was that other, unnamed suggestions were preferred by you, but there was nothing about how it is that suggestions--unnamed and unspecified--could trump a poll result.

Now, maybe I went too far in reasking my question in the false hope that you misunderstood the question. But, I still don't see why a direct, straight answer is too much to ask.

Originally posted by cavebear
On to the next round of polls...

Why??

Or more to the point, why bother with polls?? Since you put more store in suggestions anyway, doesn't it make sense to dispense with polls?? Just tell everyone what you intend to do, in general terms of course. It would sure save everyone else a lot of time.

Now, I feel sure you will think I am just being sarcastic, but really, I'm just relating how very badly I wish you could have been straight with me.

And with that being said, I too am done with this. Enjoy your game!!

Monk

[MrWhereItsAt]

Oh, BM.

I can only assume you have an RL reason to not want your time sucked into the DG at the moment (I often do ), because you're getting strangely worked up over nothing.

Please think about what you're doing. If you don't want to be here 'cos you don't like DGs then OK, but don't leave over something that frankly looks silly.

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt
Oh, BM.

I can only assume you have an RL reason to not want your time sucked into the DG at the moment (I often do ), because you're getting strangely worked up over nothing.

Please think about what you're doing. If you don't want to be here 'cos you don't like DGs then OK, but don't leave over something that frankly looks silly.

That first smiley decodes as shame. Are you saying shame on me?? And that I'm being silly??

For being confused and asking questions?? Silly?? How??

Something happened that makes no sense to me, something that makes this Democracy Game incomprehensible to me and I asked you guys to help me understand. I'm not a troublemaker. I'm not a troll. Yet, my repeated plea for help has been met, for the most part, by silence.

You do remember, I hope, that I've been here less than a month and that I mentioned coming in that all this was new to me. In so many words, everyone welcomed me and reassured me that if I had any questions that you guys would be happy to answer them for me. Well??? Where is everybody?? This is very disappointing to me; I'm the new guy here and I think you folk could have done better by me. If there is shame here, I refuse to accept it as mine.

I have stated my confusion, my questions, and my concern that, until I understand this thing, further posting by me made no sense. I don't want to mess up this game. How do I know if what I think makes sense if I don't understand the game?? That's out of respect for the game; that's out of respect for you folk.

I'm sorry, Sir, but that's not silly of me.

In an ideal world, one of you would have set aside your preconceptions and reread what has been said, listening carefully, and considering things from the viewpoint of a newby. I suspect a lot of this miscommunication is related to the fact that your 2+ years of doing this gives you a "vision" that I just can't fathom. But, I realize that is too much to expect. At this point the game has moved on. That's just the way it is. I DO understand that much.

Monk