Browsing the forums with Opera...

[DrSpike]

I think the purpose of the thread was to see if anyone else was experiencing the difficulties Yog-Sothoth was; a quite reasonable exercise. Thanks for your helpful advice though.

[Gatekeeper]

Originally posted by FireDragon
Just let Microsoft win.

**hisses evilly** YESSSSS. Let the M$ shock troops conquer Planet Internet, just as they've nearly done on Planet OS. Soon you shall ALL be drones of the M$ Collective!!!

CYBERAmazon

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Asher
Opera is indeed so much better that it stalls when reading Apolyton.

Report your bug to Opera, not here. It's a bug in their software.

Sure? Even when ACS is anything but compliant?

[Yog-Sothoth]

Originally posted by DrSpike
I think the purpose of the thread was to see if anyone else was experiencing the difficulties Yog-Sothoth was; a quite reasonable exercise. Thanks for your helpful advice though.

That was indeed the purpose.

Unfortunately a solution has not emerged, so I think I will try to post something about it to the Opera forum or mailinglist. If I find out anything, I will post it here.

[Yog-Sothoth]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


Sure? Even when ACS is anything but compliant?

I'm sure the owners are working around the clock to fix that as we speak

[Asher]

Who cares, UR?
There's no reason any reasonable browser would STILL because a site does not completely and utterly comply to the W3C "standards".

It's a bug in Opera. It should not stall. It may render improperly, but not stall.

[Hueij]

Originally posted by Asher
Who cares, UR?
There's no reason any reasonable browser would STILL because a site does not completely and utterly comply to the W3C "standards".

It's a bug in Opera. It should not stall. It may render improperly, but not stall.

You got any other song to sing? This one is getting stale...

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Asher
Who cares?

There's no reason any reasonable browser would STILL because a site does not completely and utterly comply to the W3C "standards".

It's a bug in Opera. It should not stall. It may render improperly, but not stall.

I'm perturbed that my subtle sarcasm went undetected last time.

Anyway you're probably right, it shouldn't happen. It does happen though. We all like opera, so we are going to carry on using it.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Hueij
You got any other song to sing? This one is getting stale...

Hey, when you're right, you're right.
90% of all web browsers on the market are Internet Explorer, but some committee proclaimed themselves to hold the standard and open source advocates started following those "standards" when making their products.

Newsflash: When the only "standards compliant" browsers make up ~5% of the market, and 90% of it is Internet Explorer, Internet Explorer is the real standard, and competing browsers should be designed around that if they have any chance in hell of competiting.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Asher
There's no reason any reasonable browser would STILL because a site does not completely and utterly comply to the W3C "standards".

Is it too hard to ask a website to be compliant to an universally accepted standard, instead of the pseudo stuff that MS have been imposing on the rest of the world?

Originally posted by Asher
It's a bug in Opera. It should not stall. It may render improperly, but not stall.

Not necessarily. There's nothing in the W3C standard that says a browser needs to render any improper webpages. It can just sit there and do nothing. Just because IE and Netscape have been forgiving doesn't mean it's a required behaviour.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Asher
Hey, when you're right, you're right.
90% of all web browsers on the market are Internet Explorer

Where did you get that number from?

Originally posted by Asher
, but some committee proclaimed themselves to hold the standard and open source advocates started following those "standards" when making their products.

Just the sort of misrepresentation a MS apologist sprouts. It's not some committee, it's a universally accepted standard setting comittee, just like IEEE, ISO, and a few others. Last I checked, Microsoft sat on it too. So what's your bone?

Originally posted by Asher
Newsflash: When the only "standards compliant" browsers make up ~5% of the market,

Where did you get this number, and why is this number different from the one above?

Originally posted by Asher
and 90% of it is Internet Explorer, Internet Explorer is the real standard, and competing browsers should be designed around that if they have any chance in hell of competiting.

So this is a might makes right argument? Does it mean that, once there are more W2K etc out there with the MS proprietary extensions to Kerberos than the real standard, should the rest of the world all of a sudden switch to the bastardised version instead?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Where did you get that number from?

http://www.salon.com/tech/col/leon/2002/03/12/mozilla/index1.html

Just the sort of misrepresentation a MS apologist sprouts. It's not some committee, it's a universally accepted standard setting comittee, just like IEEE, ISO, and a few others. Last I checked, Microsoft sat on it too. So what's your bone?

Errm...
No, it's some committee. It's called the "World Wide Web Consortium", or W3C. MS is a member, you're correct. The problem with things like the W3C (and OpenGL) is that because they are actually based as a committee, changes to specs are slow and hard to pass. Which is why Nvidia introduces all of its cool stuff as extensions to OpenGL rather than changing OpenGL, and MS adds its stuff to HTML and CSS before the W3C. Suddenly anything not completely adhering to the W3C "standards" is not the standard.

Where did you get this number, and why is this number different from the one above?

Because there's not simply two different browser markets. There's modern internet explorers, mozilla/NS6/opera/etc, then older versions of NS 4.x and IE 4.x making up a smaller number.

So this is a might makes right argument? Does it mean that, once there are more W2K etc out there with the MS proprietary extensions to Kerberos than the real standard, should the rest of the world all of a sudden switch to the bastardised version instead?

MS doesn't change extensions for ****s and giggles. A lot of the stuff you're complaining about with the HTML specs were done by MS before the W3C made it a standard, and they (intentionally or unintentionally) made some of it slightly different. MS added extensions to Kerberos, they didn't CHANGE it. There's a difference.

Read up on Kerberos in Win2K: http://www.nwfusion.com/news/2000/0511kerberos.html

As proof of its interoperability, Shanen Boettcher, lead product manager for Windows 2000 Server, cites customers such as Morgan Stanley Dean Witter that installed Windows 2000 desktops in a network running an existing Kerberos implementation by a company called CyberSafe in Issaquah, Wash. According to Microsoft, the successful installation of its Kerberos implementation alongside CyberSafe's "validates the interoperability of Kerberos in the Windows 2000 operating system."

Any more FUD you want to throw in the air?
More specific information, including detailed information on how MS added their extensions can be found here: http://www.microsoft.com/windows2000...y/kerberos.asp (posted way back in 1999)

[Yog-Sothoth]

Asher: please stop threadjacking. I don't want this thread to end as yet another bashing thread. The purpose is to try to find a solution to the problem.

When the forum pages suddenly stopped working, it didn't coincide with me upgrading or changing my opera installation, so they most likely changed something in their forum-code that screws it up for opera.

[Asher]

There is no solution to the problem. Opera is buggy, Opera is stalling on some code. Not Apolyton's problem. You can't seriously expect them to pour over every single line of code and change it in hopes of making it so Opera doesn't freeze, when a very very small minority use the browser?

There's no point in whining about it here.

[DrSpike]

If there was a world championship for missing the point...........

You are probably right in what you say, I'm not qualified to judge. However the point of the thread was to see if any other opera users have experienced this problem, and potentially to see if there was any way around it. Even with it being a bug in opera it was worth seeing what other opera users had to say, which is what Yog-Soggoth was doing.