FIRAXIS: Now a 'Fluff' developer?

[Jay Bee]

Hmm, what can I say? Yin and Patient said it all

[Jeje2]

Diplomacy

I am currnetly playing (my tobelastCiv3-game) on a huge world with 16 civs.
And when I finally at the dawn of Modern age declared my first war, which took two turns, we were into WW1. Due to that one lobbies allies all the time.

OK, first I was ROTFL. (It was a pretty funny sitauation)
But after 17 turns I had litterally kicked several opponents in the ass and dictated peace to them earlier - only to find out that my last opponent lurs them to redeclare war on me. And so I was going in for round two... (Democracy likes it)

Reason was that I had an alliance and wanted to wait the 20 turns - so I don't get a bad reputation. Well finally had to kick my reputation Load and make peace two turns earlier than hoped for. And now I am a lying ***** who nobody trusts - well up yours I would say.

Gamne will hopefully end tonight. (Need maybe 15-20 turns to comnplete my spaceship.) But with each turn taking up to an ½ hour I'm somewhat pessimistic.


OK, nuff said
(All the previous are also good points - moving an army of worers one-by-one is pain.)

[Jeje2]

About FIRAXIS becomming an 'fluff' developper...

I think Civ3 just is a monday-copy made with the lefthand while thinking on what the righthand is doing. I tested Sim Golf and it apears nice and to the people of sim-genree it is somethig new. (Was Gettysburg totally new in it's genree??)

Currently I just have to believe that Civ3 is/was done whitout a heart.
(Image FIRAXIS saying after Brians departure that there will be no Civ3, like there was no Sid Dino. So Civ3 was just done.)

[yin26]

Hmm, you might be right. It's just sad, that's all. Ah well. Plenty of other games to play and look forward to.

[Zealot]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
What a grave transgression! So, just because you can't make stacks out of units these games are fluff? That makes <em>Civ 2</em> and <em>SMAC/X</em> fluff then.

UR, how old are those games? Isn't that enough? For how many years must we wait for that micromanage pain to end?

[faded glory]

I guess with EU2 its loads more realism. you dont have to build massive farms or collossal road networks. Thats already built...

You just have to form shaky..regional alliances, trade...maintain a defense force and remember to never stop your Imperial quests in the New World.

EU if it went into 1900's would serouisly kick hard core ass.

I can see it now the military options.

Infantry,
Artillery,
Tank,
Airplanes,
Mecanized,

of course the graphics and map would ave to be tweaked

[yin26]

Yes, EU is not a good war game. Still, it's a better war game than is Civ3!

[Q Classic]

i'm still willing to reserve judgement on firaxis... i mean, it's three strikes and you're out, isn't it? civ3, i'm calling as a foul ball. granted, that still makes two strikes, but...

i agree with all counts on infogrames, however. that entire corporation has done too much damage by itself just to the civ genre, what with butchering the development and distribution of the game, especially in regards to their handling of the modding situation and the le situation.

they're the ones who ought to be tarred and feathered, dismembered limb from limb.

[techumseh]

Originally posted by yin26
Sorry, I don't buy those sorry excuses. Nobody ever asked for bobbing civ leader heads, which no doubt sent art production costs through the roof.

No, this is horrid management and a willing decision to make a crap game with crap PR.

If you guys are willing to play slop because you think the big bad market demands it, I'm happy for what will be many great titles for you coming down the line.

I'm not providing excuses for Firaxis, only an explanation of this most unsatisfactory game. I'm not so interested in another boring debate about WHETHER Civ3 is a good game or not, but rather WHY it's not. (attn: Urban Ranger)

I see a couple of weaknesses in your explanation, Yin. First, you don't put the decisions of Firaxis in any context. Trying to understand of the economic environment the company is working in is vital to understanding WHY they made the decisions they did. Bobbing heads are cool; they help sell games. Playtesting will be done by the fans for free; no need to spend money and hold up production for it.

Second, it's not personal. You talk as if your friend Sid let you down. He's NOT your friend, he's the owner of a game company. He's there to make money from you. Do you think the only way to make money on a game is to make a really good one? Think again. It's like saying the only way to win a game of Civilization is to reach Alpha Centauri first. The Mongols may have other plans.

I'm NOT trying to justify the game or Firaxis' decisions at all. I'm as p.o.'d as anyone. Nor am I willing to play slop. But I blame the system, not just Meier.

[Immortal Wombat]

CTP2 now lies in the hands of the gamers, as a games "company", gamers are some of the best.

BtW, we are now recruiting. MP, modding and serious gaming included. No qualifications required.

[yin26]

Bobbing heads are cool; they help sell games. Playtesting will be done by the fans for free; no need to spend money and hold up production for it.

Bobbing heads added nothing to the gameplay, and even as eye-candy is wholly off the mark. It's hideous, annoying artwork. In other words: Fluff. Fluff that drove up production costs for ZERO gameplay improvements and, I would argue, next to zero extra games sold. Terrible decision.

And if you really want to side with Firaxis on the 'fans are our beta testers,' then surely you will agree that the way they went about it is all wrong. I have long advocated using fans PRODUCTIVELY AND OPENLY as testers, but Firaxis merely spouts crap about this so-called 'revolutionary' pile and then only begrudgingly and backhandedly even aknowledges our efforts to help.

That, my friend, is the mark of a company that should close its doors before the almighty economics you talk about shut the doors for them.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Zealot
UR, how old are those games? Isn't that enough? For how many years must we wait for that micromanage pain to end?

<em>SMAC</em> came out in 1998 and <em>SMACX</em> is more recent still.

My point is <strong>not</strong> that game developers should not take steps to reduce micromanagement. Rather, just because a game has no such convenience features doesn't make it "fluff," whatever that means.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by yin26
Yes, EU is not a good war game. Still, it's a better war game than is Civ3!

That explains a lot. <em>Civ</em> wasn't supposed to be a wargame <em>per se</em> and throwing in the "Conquest Bonus" was a grave mistake.

Firaxis has done a lot to allow for more balanced approaches to empire building. Now fighting wars is just one of the things that have to be done from time to time, and is not the <strong>only</strong> thing.

[techumseh]

Originally posted by yin26

And if you really want to side with Firaxis on the 'fans are our beta testers,' then surely you will agree that the way they went about it is all wrong. I have long advocated using fans PRODUCTIVELY AND OPENLY as testers, but Firaxis merely spouts crap about this so-called 'revolutionary' pile and then only begrudgingly and backhandedly even aknowledges our efforts to help.

Side with Firaxis? You're not listening! I'm arguing that Firaxis is using fans as UNPAID LABOUR, in other words it's exploiting the fan community to save money. And producing an incomplete product in the process. Do you ever wonder what percent of the original game purchasers ever even hear of the patch, let alone download and install it?

BTW, is it just me or is this thread refusing to refresh? It never moves up after someone posts, nor does the latest posters name appear beside the thread. Is it because it's a moved thread?

[Jeje2]

Efect of Brians departure

I'll contginue on my road for a short while longer.

I now do think that Civ3 was done whitout a heart and passion that it would have needed.

And I was thinking about Brians departure as a reason, when I remembered that after his departure FIRAXIS said that now new talents had the opportunity to stand up and make - well obviously nobody did or the shoes were too big.

<hr>
P.S. My current Civ3-game ended last night in spaceracevictory. Do you know what was the best part of that game? Yes, the best part was that it ended. I'm actually somewhat proud that I manged to finnish that game. ½hour turns aren't fun at all.

FIRAXIS: If you read this - please make a log-view ála SMAC so the turn doesn't always pause to tell me that X and Y have made peace,war, trade embargo etc... (What can I do using that info in the middle of computer turn that I cann't do at the beginning of mine??) So please we need a log - also so one can see what city Z was saying so fast I didn't have time to read it.