Don't Do That!

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by HalfLotus
Firaxis has limited resources. I applaud their decision to focus most of it on game development rather than PR.

If that was the whole story, I would agree with you.

In fact, there are three approaches to this (take the following with a grain of salt):

1) The 'Heroes of Might and Magic Gambit': "It will be a wonderful game, and here is a nice screenshot, and as to the rest of your questions you will have to wait until the game is in stores."

2) The 'Firaxian Chaosmonger Approach': "We will leak some information at infrequent and unpredictable intervals, and some of this information will be dated, inaccurate or unintelligible, but it will serve to increase the hype, so all will be well."

3) The (sadly rare) Moo Approach: "We are going to tell you bona fide, what we are planning to do. We might change our plans, but if we do so, we will tell you asap, so you are not going to be kept in the dark."

I think it is understandable why some people, including me, prefer (3) and even (1) to (2).

It goes without saying that doesn´t mean that CivIII will be a bad game. The screenshots sure do look promising, and if they have managed to improve the AI, the game will be well worth the money. But that doesn´t mean we have to like their PR method, and the way they treat the community.

[yin26]

It sounds like you think the hardcore fans DESERVE to be targetted since they've contributed so many brilliant concepts to the game.

Let me give you an example: In a recent interview, Jeff Briggs said something like: "Yeah, and we got a lot of ideas from some site on the Internet."

"Some site"?!

See my point? Hell, market to the casual gamer. You have to. But don't forget to be a bit more gracious and understanding with the people who have been 'working' on the sidelines for the past 2 years, either.

And if you are going to release information: Make it accurate and timely. Otherwise, NO information is preferable. The leaked MP e-mail being a shining example of what I'm talking about.

[yin26]

Comrade Tribune: We crossed posted. EXCELLENT summary there. Nicely said.


In order, I prefer: 3, 1, 2

However, sometimes #3 can cause more problems than it's worth...so I'd opt for #1 if I really had to sit and think about it over a 2 year period.

[yin26]

2) The 'Firaxian Chaosmonger Approach': "We will leak some information at infrequent and unpredictable intervals, and some of this information will be dated, inaccurate or unintelligible, but it will serve to increase the hype, so all will be well."

So funny and true! C'mon ... we all just want to have a great Civ 3, darn it!

[SITS]

Yin - I don't know how you do it. You post in a rational tone that never seems to slip. The points you make are well put together and expressed without a nasty tone yet you seem to manage to bring out 'flame rage' in a lot of different posters! Wow! I would hate to see what would happen if you were really trying to troll!

The Others - I wonder why you get so pissed off? Yin doesn't seem to attack until he is attacked so what is it about his posts that make you see red?

[Bisonbison]

Originally posted by Comrade Tribune

It goes without saying that doesn´t mean that CivIII will be a bad game. The screenshots sure do look promising, and if they have managed to improve the AI, the game will be well worth the money. But that doesn´t mean we have to like their PR method, and the way they treat the community.

Well, I just think that it goes without saying that when a company tries to engage with it's shadow online community it has to face a stinking pile of crap from all sides. People on these boards (and boards just like them for every game I've ever followed) take things too personally, feel entitled rather than grateful, and get indignant like a pre-schoolers every time some cherished item in the game is changed.

I mean you can say that the overall community is reasonable, but for every time people like Yin try to castrate the whole company for leaving/taking out a major feature (like multiplayer), there are a hundred times when other people try to castrate the whole company for taking/leaving out something like elephant units, or the ability to poison water supplies. Do you think that encourages them to release information that isn't set in stone?

And the larger issue isn't even the features/units/screenshots, it's the rage that the community directs at Firaxis whenever something about these things doesn't live up to someone's expectations. Why do people get SO ANGRY? It's as if people assume Sid is sitting at home plotting the best way to piss on people's heads.

"Oh, I bet Yin really wants Tulsa listed in the American city list. I hate Yin. Somebody delete Tulsa, will you?"

All these things discourage info release, discourage Dan from trolling these boards and so on. So before we ask firaxis to do all these things, let's consider the legitimate reasons why they might not want to invest the energy.

[Pembleton]

Originally posted by SITS
Yin - I don't know how you do it. You post in a rational tone that never seems to slip. The points you make are well put together and expressed without a nasty tone yet you seem to manage to bring out 'flame rage' in a lot of different posters! Wow! I would hate to see what would happen if you were really trying to troll!

The Others - I wonder why you get so pissed off? Yin doesn't seem to attack until he is attacked so what is it about his posts that make you see red?

Have you heard of Chinese Water Torture? That's what is. Repeating the same thing over and over and over and over and over. And he doesn't make me angry as much as make me view him as an annoying fly that I can't swat.

His posts here are:

1) There is no MP this is bad. 50+posts explaining.
2) Why is there no MP? 50+ posts explaining.
3) I'm upset there is no MP....50+ posts explaining
4) ..... 50+ posts explaining about lack of MP
.
.
.
.

This even pushed MarkG over the edge as he closed yet another thread dealing with the lack of MP as he wrote in the last post: "Is the horse dead yet?"

And if it's not complaining about MP, it's complaining about *something*. So it may seem rational, but the root of his reason for posting are not rational at all.

[HalfLotus]

Rational? Yes.
Redundant? Painfully so.

[yin26]

Do you think that encourages them to release information that isn't set in stone?

This is precisely my point. I am *not* one of those 'tell me every little thing even before you decide on it' gamers. I'd much, much rather have NO news than things that lead to the MP fiasco, for example

So before we ask firaxis to do all these things, let's consider the legitimate reasons why they might not want to invest the energy.

Well, it's a business, of course. If they want to take their ball and go home after being shouted at (sometimes rightly, many times unfairly) by fans, then that's one way to handle it, I guess. And don't imagine that some fans simply love to hate Firaxis. In fact, over and over some of the loudest critics here have said that a more judicious posting of information would quiet them up yesterday.

[yin26]

Redundant? Painfully so.

1. Was this my thread? I merely added to this discussion.

2. I'm redundant only because a flood of settlers or shills come in and start with THEIR 'new views' and redundancies. Goes both ways.

[yin26]

Regarding MarkG's closing of my thread: I made it VERY clear to him that he was being too sensitive. The thread was funny and very lighthearted. Too bad some of you here can't handle that.

[HalfLotus]

Originally posted by yin26


1. Was this my thread? I merely added to this discussion.

2. I'm redundant only because a flood of settlers or shills come in and start with THEIR 'new views' and redundancies. Goes both ways.

I rest my case.

[yin26]

Well, as long as you are resting, I'll slip this in: The fact is, people tend to harp on me because I have been very consistent in my message for the past 2 years. But I don't spam this forum. When the issue comes up in another thread or when the issue is big enough in my mind to post a new thread about it, I do.

The fact is, a number of people here *want* to believe in something rosy and happy go lucky. That is fine. But I see their flames for what they are: Frustration that somebody *dare* criticize something when they don't want to see criticism or are 'tired' of seeing criticism. And do many of their attacks make sense?:

So I'll keep on doing what I'm doing. Sometimes praising. Many times raising concerns. Always defending myself against unjust flames, etc. Time goes on.

[SITS]

Originally posted by Pembleton


Have you heard of Chinese Water Torture? That's what is. Repeating the same thing over and over and over and over and over. And he doesn't make me angry as much as make me view him as an annoying fly that I can't swat.

His posts here are:

1) There is no MP this is bad. 50+posts explaining.
2) Why is there no MP? 50+ posts explaining.
3) I'm upset there is no MP....50+ posts explaining
4) ..... 50+ posts explaining about lack of MP
.
.
.
.

This even pushed MarkG over the edge as he closed yet another thread dealing with the lack of MP as he wrote in the last post: "Is the horse dead yet?"

And if it's not complaining about MP, it's complaining about *something*. So it may seem rational, but the root of his reason for posting are not rational at all.

I personally am very upset about the lack of MP. Firaxis still hasn't addressed this properly and I see no problem in reminding them of what they said what they haven't done. I would like to hear why Civ3 won't have the MP they said it would have. I would like them to say when it will be coming out and it would be nice for them to acknowledge the disappointment of the fans. That would be good PR and treating me, a customer, with the respect I and others deserve.

Yin has posted at length on a number of topics. Did you read his post about Korea? I learnt something from it, much more than some of yours and others mini-flames. So what is the problem? Yin posts something then others respond. Then some people come in, who don't like him and start flaming him and he responds in his rational way explaining himself. Which he seems to have to do a number of times and then he gets flamed for saying the same thing again that just happened to be ignored by others.

Look, I would rather have a thousand Yin's than one 'settler' telling him to shut up. At least Yin's 'negative' thoughts add something 'positive' to the debate.

So, tell me how YOU add to the Apolyton experience by saying how bad Yin's posts are? You ain't adding to my pleasure that's for sure.

[Bisonbison]

Originally posted by yin26

This is precisely my point. I am *not* one of those 'tell me every little thing even before you decide on it' gamers. I'd much, much rather have NO news than things that lead to the MP fiasco, for example

...

In fact, over and over some of the loudest critics here have said that a more judicious posting of information would quiet them up yesterday.

But the point is of course that many of the loudest critics would yell their heads off if there wasn't more info every friday, and that the problem may lie, not in Firaxis' approach, but in the concession, implicit in the loudest critics' remarks, that they don't have to yell at all.

They don't have to act like it's the end of the world. They don't have to call major feature revelations "fiasco"s. Why? because they're not fiascos, not betrayals, not anything but dissapointing developments, until the posters make them so. And it's that culture of screaming and demanding and ingratitude that gets old.

And while you may not be an every-little-thing-guy, you admit to be a "as much info about units and AI as can possibly be posted" kind of guy. You can't have it both ways.

And when a hundred people each want to have it both ways ("oh, you can forget about trade info, just focus on screenshots" "oh, I don't care about armies, just give me a wonders list") it ends up making no difference in terms of effort on Dan's part.