Why was this allowed to continue?

[Ming]

Originally posted by drake
All I ever said was that the mod's "trouble radar", wasn't on that day for some reason. Why? Perhaps it is because the radar usually only homes in on threads like "watch dookie pop a pimple on his ass" rather than a more serious thread, like this pig thread.

Well... at least you are insulting the mods instead of the owners

With a title like "I'm a Pig"... I thought it was about dookie popping a pimple on his ass

[MBloomIII]

Ming, I completely understand your frustration and I am amazed that you don't simply hammer someone every hour or two just to get it out of your system. And if you ever decide to do this, let me make a few suggestions.....

Originally posted by Ming
But leave the owners of the site out of it. Let's not make them think a simple solution would be to close down the OTF and stick to just gaming topics. This would be lesser place if they did!

The point I was very subtly trying to make originally was that the owners (in this case, MarkG) need to stay above the general fray and understand that members are going to complain. If they wish to set up a buffer by employing you guys as Mods, then by all means do so. However, Mark's original response to Chris was way to defensive a position to take considering Chris' agitated state. MarkG sounded very much like a little kid making sure he didn't get blamed for breaking the lamp. Chris is a registered member who deserves repect from the ownership. As the owner, Mark and Dan are held to a much higher standard of involvement than the Mods are. It is your job to take the heat when threads like this happen. Mark's response was just very petty considering the circumstances. It is by no means a criticism of this site, it is just an observation by a registered member. I realize the 'can't win for losing' situation that Dan and Mark are in, I just think that they need to realize it as well and think out responses before making them public.

Let me restate that I admire the job that all of you (Mods and owners alike) do. I am very happy to have found this site and I feel I have a vested interest in its continuation.

[Ming]

Originally posted by MBloomIII
I don't know. Perhaps I feel that the ownership should be responsive to the memership. Chris was venting over something he felt VERY strongly about. MarkG was too quick to take offense and not realise the strong emotion involved.

I don't know... perhaps I feel that "members" should show some respect to the people that provide them this site. You use the term "membership" like they "owe" you.
You don't pay a damn thing to be a member here. You might argue that without posters, there would be no site... in that, you are right. But people leave and show up all the time, so one individual doesn't really make a bit of difference. As I stated earlier... any action taken by the owners or mods is just as likely to piss somebody off as it is to make them happy... so everybody tries to do what is right, and not worry too much about it. You might also argue that "members" pay for the site by visiting... and that they are profiting on your behalf and efforts... and that is why I said earlier that this is their hobby and that they put the money back into the site to make it better.
This site was funded originally out of their pockets... it didn't make it profit, it just cost money. But they did it anyway out of love for the game... if they are making a small profit now (which I doubt in the current advertising enviornment), it wouldn't even begin to pay them back for all the time and work they have put in the site.

MarkG and DanQ are very responsive to the members of this site. You can tell by all the news updates... the upgrades... the features... the things that really matter.

[MBloomIII]

Originally posted by Ming


I don't know... perhaps I feel that "members" should show some respect to the people that provide them this site. You use the term "membership" like they "owe" you.

You've got it completely backwards. Why register then? As a registered member I agree to abide by the rules set forth by the owners. In return I expect not to be belittled by the owners in exchange for my continued membership. They do 'owe' me something. They owe me the respect and courtesy afforded any member, paying or otherwise.

This is the first time I have ever expressed criticism on this site. Is this the typical response?

In your own words; CHILL!

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Chris 62
But what you didn't know, but I did, is that there was nobody to send it to! I knew the status of Ming and MTG, and it was the middle of the night in Greece, Dan is at work, and MLeonard was not on-line. The fact that this was not always the case is the point.
Do we moderate the site or do they?

information for the future
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[MarkG]

Originally posted by MBloomIII
The point I was very subtly trying to make originally was that the owners (in this case, MarkG) need to stay above the general fray and understand that members are going to complain. If they wish to set up a buffer by employing you guys as Mods, then by all means do so. However, Mark's original response to Chris was way to defensive a position to take considering Chris' agitated state. MarkG sounded very much like a little kid making sure he didn't get blamed for breaking the lamp. Chris is a registered member who deserves repect from the ownership. As the owner, Mark and Dan are held to a much higher standard of involvement than the Mods are.

MBloomIII,

please understand two things:

1) We have recieved tons and tons of accusations, baseless whining and insults over the last years. In response, I believe that we have build an image of gentleness and professionalism(despite the incosistency with our financial status) in how we communicate with our visitors. However, this isnt always as easy as it might sound, especially when time is limited.

2) When our "staff", who are doing something for the community, for free, on their own own spare time, are criticised not for not doing their "job", but for not doing it quickly enough, I think I have the right and the obligation towards them(and I hope that you will allow me to) to be defensive for their actions.

[Ming]

Originally posted by MBloomIII
You've got it completely backwards. Why register then? As a registered member I agree to abide by the rules set forth by the owners. In return I expect not to be belittled by the owners in exchange for my continued membership. They do 'owe' me something. They owe me the respect and courtesy afforded any member, paying or otherwise.

Why register... good question. Maybe it is because YOU want to post and take full advantage of the site that they provide for free. Nobody is twisting your arm

And who belittled you... The owners didn't. You may not have liked an answer they gave to somebody because it wasn't "nice" enough in your opinion... but the response was reality. They saw it, closed it... and restricted the offender. I'm sorry if they didn't kiss somebodies butt while they explained their actions. The rules don't say they have to do that

Respect is a two way street... so no, I don't have it backwards. They show their respect to the communtiy every day by updating this fine site so we gamers have a place we can call our own. And it is a fine place to call home!

[Sirotnikov]

Chris, you maybe wanted to look like a better man, and maybe you didn't want to look that way but you're simply a really caring action taking kind of guy.

But stop. This doesn't make you look good.

You've gone into over-seriousness over-protective lets-be-so-moral-everyone-pukes mode.

Let's look at the options/l

1) this was real
<lu>a) it was rape
<lu>we can't do anything really. </lu>
</lu>
<lu>b) it wasn't a rape but rather some drunk guy hitting on a young girl, getting her drunk and convincing her to sleep with him.
<lu>sure, it wasn't nice. but it isn't rape either. i'm sure many people had similar experiences where they wished they never had that extra drink last night and have sex with a sleaze. but it isn't rape.</lu>
</lu>
2) this was a troll
<lu>a) you and others made your protest</lu>
<lu>b) the guy was banned</lu>
<lu>c) he probably won't return here. he's also traceable.</lu>

There's no reason in continuing trying to be the good and moral inspector gadget here. You can't really get him even if it was real, which you don't know. And even if it was, we still don't know whether it was rape or that drunken sex thing (or something in between).

And seeing your posts on other topics, you seem to be too morally sensitive about women, races, kids and site speed .

How can you watch the news? It's so degrading of the people the news are about!!

I say let it go. And chill out a bit. Your intentions are admirable,but you're overdoing it.

[MBloomIII]

Originally posted by MarkG


MBloomIII,

please understand two things:

1) We have recieved tons and tons of accusations, baseless whining and insults over the last years. In response, I believe that we have build an image of gentleness and professionalism(despite the incosistency with our financial status) in how we communicate with our visitors. However, this isnt always as easy as it might sound, especially when time is limited.

I can only imagine! I have enjoyed my time at this site and the main reason is the hard work that you and the Mods all put in. For that I congratulate on all of your hard work. You have created a site that you should truly be proud of.

2) When our "staff", who are doing something for the community, for free, on their own own spare time, are criticised not for not doing their "job", but for not doing it quickly enough, I think I have the right and the obligation towards them(and I hope that you will allow me to) to be defensive for their actions.

I applaud you for coming to the defense of your staff. I have done this many times myself. The way I was reading the situation was that Chris was blowing off steam over a situation he was very upset about. Much like a spouse coming home from working and venting about the bad day they had. The last thing the spouse wants to hear is a negative comment. I don't know if there is a history between you and Chris, but I think the situation could have been greatly diffused had the original response been along the lines of. "oops. That one got by us." Much like saying to your spouse, "wow, that sounds horrible". Perhaps I should just keep my mouth shut, but as a concerned member I was trying to point out a problem that I felt could have been easily dealt with in the beginning rather than letting it drag on.


Note: The 'keep mouth shut' comment above is an open invitation for all you trolls to inject your witty remarks.

[MarkG]

thank you for the kind comments and the understanding MBloomIII

[MBloomIII]

Originally posted by Ming


Why register... good question. Maybe it is because YOU want to post and take full advantage of the site that they provide for free. Nobody is twisting your arm

And who belittled you... The owners didn't. You may not have liked an answer they gave to somebody because it wasn't "nice" enough in your opinion... but the response was reality. They saw it, closed it... and restricted the offender. I'm sorry if they didn't kiss somebodies butt while they explained their actions. The rules don't say they have to do that

Respect is a two way street... so no, I don't have it backwards. They show their respect to the communtiy every day by updating this fine site so we gamers have a place we can call our own. And it is a fine place to call home!

Please indicate to me where, when, and how I failed to show respect for Mark at any point in my responses. If criticisizing is a lack of respect I need to have a talk with my wife. I thought the situation was handled poorly and I said so. I never asked for a butt to be kissed (wouldn't that make a great smilie), and I certainly did nothing to provoke your "don't pay a damn thing" remark. I tried to phrase my thoughts in the least offensive way possible, perhaps that is what threw you. Thanks for setting me straight however.

[Ming]

Originally posted by MBloomIII
Please indicate to me where, when, and how I failed to show respect for Mark at any point in my responses. If criticisizing is a lack of respect I need to have a talk with my wife.

Now that you mention, I should talk to my wife about this too

My comments were in regards to your comment that MarkG is lacking in PR skills... which in my mind was phrased as an insult (but then again, I work for an advertising and PR conglomerate ) And yes, by stating that he could have showed some more empathy in the situation is indeed asking him to kiss some butt (yeah... interesting picture) He stated what occured in a matter of fact manner... and was done with it.

I know you respect the hard work they have put into this site (but did you have to use such large letters)... I'm just coming to the defense of people that I have a lot of respect for too. So please forgive my harsh comments... and I'll get off my soap box now

[MBloomIII]

Originally posted by MBloomIII
Ming, I completely understand your frustration and I am amazed that you don't simply hammer someone every hour or two just to get it out of your system. And if you ever decide to do this, let me make a few suggestions.....

But I didn't mean me.

Keep up the good work.

[Chris 62]

I find it quite revealing that some authority figures chose to not once address a comment at me, in a thread I started.

MBloom, you have been on the ball all the way, as far as my view of this. As far as I know, Mark and and I get along fine, outside of my busting his chops about the site speed, but I hardly believe he would be petty enough to hold a grudge based on that. Also, it might seem that Imran and I don't get along, and this also is nonsense, and I hope all understand that all of this must be viewed in the context of these events.

Let me also mention, that this was being fought in the name of others, and that I was compelled by my own moral and ethical code to take this stand.

Mark, I like your site, and have told you so before, and I believe it is sometimes important to haul an uncomfortable thing like this out and give it a fair hearing, not dismiss it as the rantings of a single poster. Many people expressed the same sentiments as I did, but just made their comments and moved on. Only here, after many posts, has your staff even really addressed this, but with you as the exception, chose to ignore my comments and direct them elsewhere, and in fact, only to point out a site feature was I addressed in the balence of all this. Truly astounding.

I think that all that needs to be said about this has been said, so please lock this up, as it has served it's purpose.

[SuperSneak]

I agree wholeheartedly with all the reasonable and intelligent things that have been said here.