Should we freeze the ACPSG?

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by Pandemoniak

I simply love it. Who said police states were inefficient ? :nasty:
Thats also the main point for any dictatorship. Whats the point losing time to talk and chat when you can be as efficient ? And in what name can you trust the weak masses of voters when you are not sure the elected person can do its job properly, says Yang ?

Pandemoniak!!!!

[Pandemoniak]

Now the General Secretary can appoint the most active members Politburo members, so judges will always be sufficiently available, and it can be quickly decided without much judicial bureaucracy if an order is eg unconstitutional and thus needs to be vetoed.

I simply love it. Who said police states were inefficient ? :nasty:
Thats also the main point for any dictatorship. Whats the point losing time to talk and chat when you can be as efficient ? And in what name can you trust the weak masses of voters when you are not sure the elected person can do its job properly, says Yang ?

[MrWhereItsAt]

Originally posted by Darkness' Edge
I'm glad to see that a non-team game got going again, but the overriding roleplay element is a bit of a turn-off.

*runs back to obscurity*

HA! Interesting to see we both agree. Ironically, it appears in our efforts to start a SPDG weunwittingly unleashed what became something different.

Like Soviet Union - Lenin would certainly not have expected what happened there under Stalin!

Er, not that I'm really comparing you guys to... oh forget it.

[Nubclear]

Haha. There really is no more roleplay here In fact, this is pretty much a spam town.

+1

[Darkness' Edge]

I'm glad to see that a non-team game got going again, but the overriding roleplay element is a bit of a turn-off.

*runs back to obscurity*

[Maniac]

Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt
I can't say I've given the Politburo thing much thought, but it is an additional layer of authority on the usual Ministers - President/Vice President of DGs that I am unused to, so it is new to me. Maybe an understanding of the whys and whats of this will come to me with time.

Though the ACPSG Politburo may at first seem unorthodox compared to the government structures of democracy games, it isn't that radically new. Let's have a look at what the constitutional proposal says about the Politburo:

The members of the Politburo are appointed by the General Secretary, the Chairman of the Politburo. The Politburo can at most consist out of nine members. Criteria for selection are political influence, activity rate (especially on turnchats) and representation of the most important political tendencies. The Chairman of the Council of Ministers is an automatic member of the Politburo though.
Tasks and functions:

• In case of a constitutional issue, the judges for the Supreme Court will be volunteers of the Politburo.
• A majority of the Politburo can veto any decision of an executive government official.

The Politburo doesn't really have that much to do. Judges have to be chosen out of the Buro, and they can veto decisions, which was also an ability of judges in the first ACDG. So just talking functionally you can simply consider the Politburo of the ACPSG the Supreme Court of the ACDG.
A big difference is that the Politburo (and thus the judges) are appointed by the General Secretary, and not by elections every two months as in the ACDG. But I believe that's an improvement, as in the previous ACDG it happened several times that people who were elected Judges were no longer active two months later. Now the General Secretary can appoint the most active members Politburo members, so judges will always be sufficiently available, and it can be quickly decided without much judicial bureaucracy if an order is eg unconstitutional and thus needs to be vetoed.
Besides that the Politburo also performs an important RP function. After all you can't have a decent police state without a party elite who supposedly controls everything!

Rules I certainly agree with the need for - in a sense. I guess I always want the DGs to be played much the same as the Civ2DG is and always has been - no Constitution, merely a set of guidelines as to which Minister does what, and we can all get on with it.

Despite the formalities of our constitution, I think you can consider it a set of informal guidelines as well. The most important part is telling what each official does. There's another big part about Courts, but those are rarely needed, and there's also a big part about polls, but unless there are some conflicts about SE for instance, those neither need to be followed that strictly IMHO. The constitution is handy to refer to if there is a conflict, but if everything goes fluently, it doesn't need to be brought up.

I have fought lost battles many times in the Civ3DG about Constitutions, and I am happy to say the Con there is a Constitution in name only, as we have not consulted it for a loooong time. When turns are played, they are done so without the controversy had when the rules controlled all. There are no major conflicts, and if someone has an issue they raise it and it is worked out to mutual satisfaction. Rules always have exceptions.

Indeed. But the Consciousness is a smaller group, and since we all chose the same faction, we probably automatically agree on most things. For a (hopefully ) larger game with more opportunity for disagreement I find it handy to have something to fall back upon.

AdamTG:

for this again I apologize. I hope that the other worthy members of the Central Committee, especially the ministers, will not hold against me a comment made in haste.

Don't worry. I just cancelled my order to Hercules to eliminate you. You can rest assured.

[FlameFlash]

No!

[AdamTG02]

Ghh. This is what happens when I post in a hurry.

To clarify, the Chairman has the power to play turns in an emergency; i.e. when no orders have been received by a turnchat. This was done in the last turnchat, because no orders were posted.

I was not addressing General Secretary Maniac; I was addressing the members of the Council of Ministers. As a Politburo member who is not a minister, who is interested in the success of the Hive, I wanted to make sure they understood that others will pick up their duties if they do not perform them. I was overly confrontational, and for this I apologize. I simply wanted to make clear that for those who want to be part of the political life of the Hive, given the results of this poll, it seems you'll have to post orders.

I presumed to speak for the General Secretary and the Chairman, and for this again I apologize. I hope that the other worthy members of the Central Committee, especially the ministers, will not hold against me a comment made in haste.

[MrWhereItsAt]

I can't say I've given the Politburo thing much thought, but it is an additional layer of authority on the usual Ministers - President/Vice President of DGs that I am unused to, so it is new to me. Maybe an understanding of the whys and whats of this will come to me with time.

Rules I certainly agree with the need for - in a sense. I guess I always want the DGs to be played much the same as the Civ2DG is and always has been - no Constitution, merely a set of guidelines as to which Minister does what, and we can all get on with it. I have fought lost battles many times in the Civ3DG about Constitutions, and I am happy to say the Con there is a Constitution in name only, as we have not consulted it for a loooong time. When turns are played, they are done so without the controversy had when the rules controlled all. There are no major conflicts, and if someone has an issue they raise it and it is worked out to mutual satisfaction. Rules always have exceptions.

Ignore the RP? I can but try, but it sometimes feels as if I should use some else I am bringing down the fun for others.

...electron spin matrices

ARGH! Keep those 'orrible things away from me! I understand their use in some fields (basic QM for example), but they typify trouble for me with things like Gauge theories.

[jtsisyoda]

First tell me what you don't understand about electron spin matrices, then I'll answer your question.

[Maniac]

MWIA and jtsisyoda, what exactly do you find so weird about the official and politburo system that you don't get it? Just wondering how things are perceived by relative "outsiders".

[jtsisyoda]

I was originally very interested in the PS idea, but after the polls for how to work it with the officials and politburo, and seeing how it started, I don't really 'get it'. It's different than ACDTG (I wasn't in the first ACDG). I haven't voted on this poll, because I basically don't feel like I'm in this game and don't feel like I should vote. I wanted to be in it, but it's not what I expected.

[Maniac]

The caveat to that, if I may presume to say so, is that the active members of the Politburo may choose to go forward without your input.

Go forward with what without my input?

The Chairman and General Secretary have emergency powers for good reason.

Emergency powers are useful if one or two officials are temporary unable to organize polls and write orders, to prevent the game from stalling, and thus prevent decreasing the fun for all other remaining active participants. Emergency powers aren't meant IMHO to act completely on our own without any input from other ACPSG participants, like GT, you and I had to do during the last chat.

[AdamTG02]

The caveat to that, if I may presume to say so, is that the active members of the Politburo may choose to go forward without your input.

The Chairman and General Secretary have emergency powers for good reason. But it would be tragic if this turned into a game of only a few active people. So let's not let that happen.

[Maniac]

MWIA, how would you organize a game without some rules (a constitution) to prevent possible conflict (as in the first ACDG) and to make things flow more easier?
Also, I don't see why you couldn't ignore the RP and only participate in in-game discussions.

Lemmy, if you still want the initial scenario file, there's a download link to it in the FAQ, under "How do I join?".

Anyway, it's clear there is a majority for not freezing the game. In that case, please note that I will not "force" officials to post their polls and discussions. This is a voluntary effort. Me complaining to officials all the time would only reduce the fun of this ACPSG for those officials, and we already have a shortage of people willing to take some initiatives as it is.