Bonuses: Add or multiply

[Adalbertus]

Hi,

There is often some inaccuracy in the description of the boni due to facilities or something else in the game. But as this can amount to huge differences, I think it might be worth a thread on it own. So: When do bonuses add, when do they multiply?
Where they AFAIK add:
Lab facilities. Three 50% boni add to a bonus of 150%, thus doubling your tech output. If they multiplied, it would result in 238% bonus.
Where they mulitply: Offensive/defensive boni:
AAA in a a base with Perimeter defense and Aerospace complex gives a bonus of 700%, making some pesky armour nearly impenetrable by airplanes.
Perimeter defense and Tachyon field add only.
The main force of the SSC is that the effects of the SP's multiply. If they didn't, you might as well build those SP's in different bases, except for the crawlers, and ME, if you are lucky enough to snag it. So, for the science output, this would be a formula like:
(Energy*science + BioLab + LabSpecialists)*(1 + Sum of Lab facilities)*SC*ToE
where Energy is what is left of the base's energy production (Worker, Crawler, Sat, including ME) after inefficiency,
science is your science setting, from 0 to 1, BioLab gives +2, if you have built it, each Lab facility (NetNode, ReseachHospital, FusionLab, NanoHospital, Quantum Lab) giving 0.5, SC and ToE give 2, if they exist in the base, 1, if not.
(Formula not tested, and there are certainly some round-offs missing ...)
With the lab facilities, the difference is most clear: As they add, they will result in an overall bonus of 300%, if they were multiplied, it would be 1039%.

[Blake]

Hey, good stuff.
Another area of interest is terraforming and tile bonus's, some both add and multiply and others are just plain weird. Rounding is obviously much more significant too.
Nuts, in order:
Moisture:
Arid - 0 Nuts
Moist - 1 Nut
Rainy - 2 Nuts
Jungle:
+1 Nut
Nut Bonus:
+2 Nuts
Farm:
+1 Nut
Enricher:
+1 Nut
Condensor:
+50% nuts, rounded down
Rainy+Farm+Condensor
2+1 = 3
3 + 1.5 = 4.

Rainy + Nut bonus + Farm + Condensor
2 + 2 + 1 =5
5 + 2.5 = 7
Rainy + Jungle + Farm + condensor
2 + 1 + 1 =4
4 + 2 =6


Minerals / Energy:
Mostly described correctely in Datalinks, with one notable execption:
With Mineral and Energy bonuses, you get an additional +1 for the presence of mine/solar (platform/tidal). (But you dont get the +1 for Borehole/Forest)

[MariOne]

Re: Bonuses: Add or multiply

Originally posted by Adalbertus
Hi,

There is often some inaccuracy in the description of the boni ...,
I think it might be worth a thread on it own.

commendable intentions, but you fall victim of the same inaccuracy at some points...
I wonder, if you felt the need to clarify the inaccuracies, why didn't you bother to verify your assumptions before posting them?

OK, you correctly recalled our attention on the fact that
- facilities bonuses are additive,as clearly explained in the datalinks
- combat modifiers are multiplicative, except the combination of defensive facilities, which you got wrong anyway
- Science SP modifiers are multiplicative

Now, 1st you forgot something taht is woth to mention in your formula, that is Energy is subject to inefficiency losses before being allocated to science, while other labs sources are immune to this inefficiency; allocation unbalance penalties are instead applied to the whole labs figure, I think (I might need to verify this, sorry but I'm not perfect neither will someone do it for me, thanks)

Three 50% boni add to a bonus of 150%, thus doubling your tech output.

???????
Applying a bonus of 150%, that is bringing tech output from 100 to 250, you call it "doubling"?????
Sorry, but we do not use the same terms for maths.....

AAA in a a base with Perimeter defense and Aerospace complex gives a bonus of 700%, making some pesky armour nearly impenetrable by airplanes.
Perimeter defense and Tachyon field add only.

This statement means that you never observed the odds before a combat.
You took the nominal modifiers, and multiplied them, without ever in your games realising how do they really work.
Base 25% (*1.25)
Perimeter 100% (*2)
AeroComplex 100% (*2)
AAA (Tracking) 100% (*2)

I frankly tho fail to find any possible way to obtain "700%" unsing those figures, it must be again the different mathematics system we are using

Here is how they work:

• An unarmored unit in base will defend at 1.25 strength (bonus 25%) against ANY attack (that is: land, air, sea, PSI, arty, except probe combat)
• With Perimeter that unit will defend with strength 2 against land attack. This means that perimeter bonus is NOT cumulative, bu *replaces* base bonus
• With Perimeter that unit will defend with strength 1.25 against AIR attacks. This means that Perimeter is *ignored* against air and sea attacks (amphibious counts as land).
• That unit with Aerocomplex against Air attack will defend at strength 2. That is, base bonus only applies when you don't have the defense enhancing facility against that kind of attack, same as Perimeter against land.
• AAA IS cumulative with AeroComplex bonus, and with base bonus, but of course applies against air attacks only. Thus
• A 1-<1>-1 unit in base will defend with 2.5 strength (1.25*2) against air, but with1.25 aginst others.
• Same unit WITH AeroComplex will defend with 4 strength (2*2, but no base bonus) against air, with 1.25 against others.
• Same unit with Aerocomplex AND Perimeter, will defend THE SAME with 4 strength against air, and with 2 against Land, and with 1.25 against sea, or even land PSI.

So, AAA in a base with AeroComplex (*regardless* of perimeter), has a defense bonus against Air of 300% (NOT 700%), that is multiplies its armor by a 4 factor
STILL with just Plasma (which would be probably available when you can bring air attacks), the basic defensive strength of that units becomes 3*4= 12, which is a LOT, considering that by that time your best weapon is Missile (6) and that there can be 20 years before someone gets to Chaos.
Add (or rather... multiply by ) Morale modifiers, which apply to both atatcker and defenders, and sensors, which confer a further *1.25 to defense.
Even that way, your AAA Plasma will defend with a *7.5 factor (650% bonus), makig it 22.5, very difficult for your Elite Missile Penetrators attacking at strength 9.
But use an Elite Missile Infantry, and the defense factor will drop to *3.75 (*2 Perimeter *1.5 Elite * 1.25 sensor), against *1.875 for attack (*1.5 Elite *1.25 infantry vs base).
That way, Missile against the same Plasma garrison in the same base combat both at equal 11.25 strength...

Perimeter defense and Tachyon field add only..

this is correct.
For the sake of precision Tachyon Fields (or Pistachios Fields as I like to imagine them ), are additive with any defensive facility in any domain:
- they make a 100% Perimeter (*2) a 200% LAND defense (*3)
- they make a 100% AeroComp(*2) a 200% AIR defense (*3)
- they make a 100% NavelYard (*2) a 200% SEA defense (*3)
- they do nothing against PSI or probe attacks

In the absenc of the basic defensive facility for that domain, they just act as it: without AeroC, a Pistachio will give 100% (*2) bonus against air, also replacing the 25% base bonus as if it was the AeroC itself.
In all those cases, the combat display reads "Tachyon: 200%", making us think that it actually *replaces* the basic defense facility reinforcing it, or "Tachyon: 100%" wheen that facility lacks.

Curious, you need a Perimeter to build a Pistachio. If you have and AeroC but not a Perimeter, you can't build it.
It is always possible tho that you have a Perimeter, then you build the Pistachio, and then the Perimeter gets scrapped (for ec) or destroyed (by sabotage or other disgraces).

I hope this all helped to set things clear enough, always glad to lend a helping hand to the blinds...

[MariOne]

Hmmm, when I started writing the reply, Blake's post was not there...
do you mean that it really took me one whole hour to post? oh, my!
___
BTW, Blake, "Enrichers giving +1Nut" is another ERROR written in the Manuals and Datalinks. If you test them in combination with NutSpecials and Jungle (i.e. with food figures high enough to tell the difference), you'll see that they behave just like Condensors: they multiply Nuts by 1.5 (of course they don't also condense more rain like Condensors instead do)

It would be more correct to say that the "Mine+road" combination benefits of a further +1min when in presence of a MinSpecial, as when on Rocky terrain or in MEL (Mineral Enhancing Landmark: Mount Planet, Garland Crater, Nessus Canyon); beware, not all these 3 effects are cumulative, search for a recent post of mine where I wrote how thigs work.

It's the first time that I hear a solar has the same effect on Energy bonuses, I never realised it, I'll run to test it, it would make interesting to solar even sealevel EnSpecials...
Thank you for pointing out.

[Blake]

It's the first time that I hear a solar has the same effect on Energy bonuses, I never realised it, I'll run to test it, it would make interesting to solar even sealevel EnSpecials...

Oops, my bad. Don't know what i was thinking when I grouped energy with mineral bonus's, because they don't incur any extra benefit (It's been a while since I've played SMAC...)

It is always possible tho that you have a Perimeter, then you build the Pistachio, and then the Perimeter gets scrapped (for ec) or destroyed (by sabotage or other disgraces).

Or changing production to perimeter defense, add a Tachy defense into the Queue (it has to be the last/only item in the queue), then change the Perimeter defense to something else you want to build, the tachy remains in the queue and is built when it comes up, despite the lack of a Perimeter. (This trick is good if you want to build a bases defense up really quickly - it also works for building Orbitals before building an Aerospace, another way of doing this trick is to copy another bases queue containing the forbidden item - this method is good for building Aquafarms, ships etc in landlocked bases)
The previously described strategy may be considered cheating - but is fine for SP if you think it is logical to be able to build Aquafarms in landlocked bases, or tachy defenses before perimeter defenses

[Adalbertus]

Originally posted by MariOne:
I wonder, if you felt the need to clarify the inaccuracies, why didn't you bother to verify your assumptions before posting them?

I felt the need to start a discussion on that topic, because it was never too clear in the forums. I just needed some figures to start up and hoped for the clarification by some way more experienced players than I am and who already know the formulae by heart (like you, for example )

Applying a bonus of 150%, that is bringing tech output from 100 to 250, you call it "doubling"?????

Sorry, bad in maths late the evening . Or, as a professor of mine put it: Infinity, for physicists that's 10E10, and half of it is 10E5.

I frankly tho fail to find any possible way to obtain "700%" unsing those figures, it must be again the different mathematics system we are using

Ok, also here, I made a too quick example (just to show the difference between adding and multiplying boni.) In observing the odds, I might have been fooled by base*Sensor array (1.56..) instead of 2. Order of magnitude is correct . So I made
Perim*AAA*Airbase = *8
base*Sensor*AAA*Airbase = 6.25 would be correct.
Anyway (and this is what counts for me), if I have anything less than a shard penetrator I wouldn't even care to look to morale, if I were to attack a plasma armour.

I hope this all helped to set things clear enough, always glad to lend a helping hand to the blinds...

That's what I hoped for. thanks.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Blake

- it also works for building Orbitals before building an Aerospace, another way of doing this trick is to copy another bases queue containing the forbidden item - this method is good for building Aquafarms, ships etc in landlocked bases)
The previously described strategy may be considered cheating - but is fine for SP if you think it is logical to be able to build Aquafarms in landlocked bases, or tachy defenses before perimeter defenses

Blake,

I can see wanting an aquafarm in a landlocked base as it can still have significant sea squares but why build a ship ? Would this be in a situation where you are dropping terrain or massive sea rises so that you want your ship prebuilt for when the base is no longer landlocked.


marione

you are again an example of precision with the math and proof that checking things out can yield interesting results.


Adalbertus


I understand that you were just trying to raise the issue with your initial question . . . but you then went on to make several statements/ assumptions as if they were factual and Marione noted the mistakes. No real harm but I do tend now to note clearly when I am stating something I am unsure of, so as not to accidentally mislead other players.

[Blake]

The only real reason you would want to build a ship in a landlocked base is ships get the Bombardment ability for free. This means you can build a Clean, SAM, Artillery unit - aka Locust slaughterer. Often I stock every single base with a Artillery unit - and they tend to survive until the end of the game, thus making them clean makes a lot of sense.
Also, if you have psi gates I believe you can shift ships to any base using the gates, you could build ships in landlocked bases and gate them to coastal bases.

That said, I can't recall ever actually using this 'feature' to build a ship in a landlocked base. (but I have used it for Aquafarms, and Orbitals before Aerospace)

[Sikander]

I had a foil trapped in a base by a volcano one time, and it was really useful. I almost scrapped it, but then I remembered that it could still bombard, and the base was a captured one still in the hot zone. It really helped me defend that base from counterattacks, and later from worms. In some games artillery comes very late for me, usually games where I get traded or find a lot of tech early in the game, before I have made significant progress toward my 'must have' economic techs.

[Flubber]

Thanks blake and sikander

I had thought of the arty ability but by the time that worm pops become a problem I would tend to have a Sam arty rover in about every third or 4th base. It uses more minerals support by not having clean units but it would have a lesser total mineral investment to build them in the first place and the rovers would be a bit more flexible in their response as they could move to meet a threat.

Now if I did not have the arty ability, well, ships would be a good substitute.