Fixing The two weakest factions?

[Flubber]

Yavoon

I don't know whether you suck or not BUT as I said its Morgan with +4 ECON. I think the base square alone gets 6-8 energy depending if on a river or if there is a rec tanks. Then he has some commerce. But in regular games I am routinely getting 6 energy from a base square with no commerce.

Crawlers are usable by 2120 by Zak, Morgan and the Consciousness in "normal games" with any regular distribution at all regarding rivers, monoliths or energy specials.


YAVOON
"I don't personally tie up support in formers until I have crawlers, which is like 2150, at which time I'd usually have a secret project done. obviously yer just spitting out answers at me w/o thinking. but lets look at crawlering food for doctors. "


See thats where we differ-- if the terrain is not good--formers first -- ind auto has to wait a few more turns. Thats why I have sensors and fear worms less I guess. I will also usually have a SP done by 2150 (but it may not be started until the 2130s)



----

"u can't go out then attack w/ infantry units, so u have to move out, then defend, or move everythign in and wait"

Yup--In the event a worm approaches a crawler, the crawler moves a couple of squares (road or river) and harvests another square instead. When the worm gets near a unit whammo--

--



"u crawler 2 food for one doctor, thats a crawler which can get killed, that gives u 1 pacified worker, and that only after the base has grown into it, against a rec commons that gives u 2. thats twice the value out of the rec commons. I mean its nice that ur naming alternatives, ur just not realizing that they aren't as good as the rec commons. "

well you aren't getting the point-- crawling food early means my base grows faster than a comparable base with a rec commons-- depending on the faction, police may handle the growth to size 2 or we use the temporary measure of a doctor. The doctor is only there until needed which is usually until the next CP is rushed.

and a doctor does help two citizens in most cases. I just exceeded burecracy limits in one of my games and the base would unmodified have 2 drones-- turn one into a doctor and the other goes content with no cost or upkeep and the base is still producing-- The crawler can be cashed or moved out of the base radius later in the game



YAVOON
"I like how u luv to reference ambiguous authority, like ur ****ing michael jordan. "

I don't understand this comment . I reference no authority other than my own experience with the game. I won't be drawn into insults.

-----


It is obvious we play the game very differently. My comments would have very little relevance to someone like you that does not bother with formers until 2150. I just provide my perspective. Unlike you, I still think I can learn more about this game. Thats why I debate people like you, that present ideas I see as different. I challenge the ideas to see the basis of them but in this case I remain unconvinced that rec commons are needed very often before 2130.

By contrast, all you see fit to do is disparage anyone that disagrees with you. All I can say is if you want to insult me, at least have the decency to come up with something more witty

[yavoon]

tons of just flat wrong things u sed. like u wnted to slip one by on me. first doctors never handle 2 drones, since handling a drone is allowing it be a worker out in the fields. u sacrifice a worker, as a doctor, to THEN handle a drone. why u would think otherwise I dont know.

Industrial automation is basically 6 techs away, ind base, ind eco, info net, plan net, cent ecology(its silly to not get this), and industrial auto. thats 5 techs for morgan, u telling me morgan gets a tech every 4 turns? wu tdo u mean normal distribution of energy specials and rivers? I rarely have an early energy special(like I'd want it more than a food/nutrient neway) and I'm lucky to ben era a river, normal distribution for me is no river no energy special, but usually say a river w/in like 5-10 spaces. considering I make rainy games, I don't understand how u can rely on rivers constantly. and of course u can "regularly get 6 energy from a base" like that was what I was arguing. u sed u coul dget 10-12 energy from a size 1 base, not six from a base square. u still need 4 energy from the field. infact, I never mentioned nething about 6 energy in a base square.

where ar eu building this SP among a buncha size 1 bases that crank colony pods and never leave size one? lets leav

e zak outta this, cuz his ridiculous resarch rates make it hard to compare.

as for the base growing faster, U NEED IT GROW FASTER, my size 2 base w/ a rec commons under fre market can work two squares, ur size 3 base w/ two doctors and a crawler can work 1, or u can have a size 2 w/ 1 doctor and work one square. sure u get to size 3 faster, but u need the accelerated growth just to turn him into a doctor, kinda counter productive eh?

and i saved this for later, since u prolly just misunderstood, centauri ecology is the first tech I get, 2150 was in reference to on the avg w/ the factions I play when i get industrial automation. I'm not sure if I mistyped myself, I doubt it, plz read better.

2130? when did this 2130 thing come in? I didnt say u needed rec commons before 2130, I sed most ppl will have it researched before 2130. and that AS PART of MY strategy I usually try and get a project base up very quickly using a rec commons and a nutrient special if I can. but ur gna need rec commons the instant u go vertical, whether this is at 6, or 12, or even 18 bases. rec commons handle drones better than ne other method, and surely better early.

and ur a liar, if u don't know what "appeal to authority" means, this is it, "I guess Tau, Qantaga and I must be dumbasses since neither of us has not built a rec commons yet. Strangely though, we have managed to have no unrest."

I apologize if u didn't understand wut the phrase meant, maybe u should have looked it up.

[Flubber]

More insults but still no wit

QUOTE] Originally posted by yavoon and ur a liar, if u don't know what "appeal to authority" means, this is it, "I guess Tau, Qantaga and I must be dumbasses since neither of us has not built a rec commons yet. Strangely though, we have managed to have no unrest."

I apologize if u didn't understand wut the phrase meant, maybe u should have looked it up. [/QUOTE]

A specific example of two other specific players in a specific game that I was using throughout is an "appeal to an ambiguous authority".

Why don't you call me another name

[yavoon]

wow we're down to picking at my insults, is that ur huge pedistol, that I'm notwitty enuff for u? is that wuts wrong w/ my argument? I need more wit, it would appear thats my shortcoming.

as u've stoped addressing other pionts, in favor of trying to tell me how unwitty I am.

[Flubber]

I was going to leave this as pointless but the wife is late so here goes-- I appreciate that you will ignore or intentionally misconstrue everything I say but it is kind of fun to see how you transform everything I say.

Originally posted by yavoon
tons of just flat wrong things u sed. like u wnted to slip one by on me. first doctors never handle 2 drones, since handling a drone is allowing it be a worker out in the fields. u sacrifice a worker, as a doctor, to THEN handle a drone. why u would think otherwise I dont know.

___ you sacrifice what would be a drone to handle what would be another drone-- so in a size 3 base, 2 are working and one is a doctor

Industrial automation is basically 6 techs away, ind base, ind eco, info net, plan net, cent ecology(its silly to not get this), and industrial auto. thats 5 techs for morgan, u telling me morgan gets a tech every 4 turns? wu tdo u mean normal distribution of energy specials and rivers? I rarely have an early energy special(like I'd want it more than a food/nutrient neway) and I'm lucky to ben era a river, normal distribution for me is no river no energy special, but usually say a river w/in like 5-10 spaces. considering I make rainy games, I don't understand how u can rely on rivers constantly. and of course u can "regularly get 6 energy from a base" like that was what I was arguing. u sed u coul dget 10-12 energy from a size 1 base, not six from a base square. u still need 4 energy from the field. infact, I never mentioned nething about 6 energy in a base square.

___ BY normal I mean a pretty average start-- sometimes you get more and sometimes less-- I already explained that the 11 energy base got some from commerce. It actually produced 13 but lost 2 to innefficiency. Oh and I have seen Morgan researching as fast as a tech every 3 turns in the early days---

where ar eu building this SP among a buncha size 1 bases that crank colony pods and never leave size one? lets leav

e zak outta this, cuz his ridiculous resarch rates make it hard to compare.


----- What does size have to do with SPs?? crawl some minerals--

as for the base growing faster, U NEED IT GROW FASTER, my size 2 base w/ a rec commons under fre market can work two squares, ur size 3 base w/ two doctors and a crawler can work 1, or u can have a size 2 w/ 1 doctor and work one square. sure u get to size 3 faster, but u need the accelerated growth just to turn him into a doctor, kinda counter productive eh?

-- The accelerated growth is not to make a doctor, it is to grow the pop so another colony pod can go out--I start to worry about infrastructure like rec commons only when drones become a problem--

and i saved this for later, since u prolly just misunderstood, centauri ecology is the first tech I get, 2150 was in reference to on the avg w/ the factions I play when i get industrial automation. I'm not sure if I mistyped myself, I doubt it, plz read better.

-- No you should write better-- DIRECT QUOTE
"I don't personally tie up support in formers until I have crawlers, which is like 2150, at which time I'd usually have a secret project done. "

-- Sounds like not many formers to me

2130? when did this 2130 thing come in? I didnt say u needed rec commons before 2130, I sed most ppl will have it researched before 2130. and that AS PART of MY strategy I usually try and get a project base up very quickly using a rec commons and a nutrient special if I can. but ur gna need rec commons the instant u go vertical, whether this is at 6, or 12, or even 18 bases. rec commons handle drones better than ne other method, and surely better early.

-- As I have said throughout-- rec commons are a fine method of drone control but not one that gets needs to get researched early by many factions--Pretty much anyone who cannot go FM will use police for early drone control and for FMer's, psych allocation is available. All of this goes back to your assertion that MIriam could never trade social psych since everyone would have it--

and ur a liar, if u don't know what "appeal to authority" means, this is it, "I guess Tau, Qantaga and I must be dumbasses since neither of us has not built a rec commons yet. Strangely though, we have managed to have no unrest."

I apologize if u didn't understand wut the phrase meant, maybe u should have looked it up.

-----I already dealt with this. I do find it interesting that you failed to address my comment. More directly why are insults a necessary part of your comments?

All I can say yavoon is that it must be nice being omniscient.

{sarcasm ON} You are right about everything you have ever said or ever will say and anyone that disagrees is a dumbass, liar, appealing to an ambiguous authority or thinks they are Michael Jordan. You are the god and we should all bow down to your all encompassing wisdom {Sarcasm OFF}

maybe its a mistake to think you might actually want to discuss things. Unlike you I am sometimes wrong and have often learned there are different ways to play by watching others (infiltration in MP) or listening/debating on this board. There are all kinds of ways to succeed at Smax and only the most rigid would believe that there are not alternatives.


Well my ride is here so thanks for killing some time for me

[WhiteElephants]

Originally posted by yavoon
heh, power is prolly the worst longterm social choice. u have ne idea how painful -2 industry is? again, yall are just kinda theorizing off the top of ur head instead of actually knowing about these things.

It's is arrogance like this that offends people. As hard as it is for you to believe there are several people on these boards with experience and a willingness to share that experience, but when you open up with statements about no one "actually knowing about these things" you'll be hard pressed for any kind of help.

sure u can get the vats, and I'd like to know the probability that miriam is the first to get the vats in MP. ne guesses? I'm sure she'll beat morgan and zak to them. u know this is where irony comes in too, wealth is better then power w/ the vats for me.

I've been beaten to the Vats by Miriam in MP and if you read Googlie's entire post what was being refered to was a good combination of social engineering choices, that didn't neccessarily hinge on having the Cloning Vats, that could be used to wage war, though having the Cloing Vats would be optimal. If you've alreay built your attack units the -2 industry isn't a problem, and on top of that Miriam's support helps counter a percentage of minerals that would normally be lost in support of said units.

[yavoon]

why do u say things that jsut aren't true. I could make petty comments on how you "construe" things, or how you have no "wit" and be constantly condescending, but I prefer to stick on the obviousness of u just saying false things, lying...etc.

AGAIN, lets work this out, size 2 base w/ rec commons under free market, 2 workers. size 3 base under free market, 3 drones. but if u wna think that maybe the base has zero beaurocracy drones, then we just add. its not difficult, size 3 base w/ rec commons 3 workers, size 4 base w/o rec commons, 3 total drones, 1 doctor, ur stil in riot, u need 2 doctors. so now I'm working three squares and ur working 2, and u had to grow one whole size bigger. and urs is in a unit that can die.

I'm not saying there aren't alternatives, why do u always have this politically correct appeal? I'm saying that the methods ur suggesting AREN'T as efficient as a rec commons, thats wut debating is, or shall I look that up for u too?

size has to do w/ mineral output before crawlers, I thot I already explained this? I think I've sed several times its a pre-crawler SP base. obviously ur not too smart I can understand, u spend too much time attempting to insult me to argue.

NONONONONO, sparky, we are specifically talking about drone quelling methods. not about ICS'ing w/ 4 food and 2 minerals. u specifically sed several times, that psych allocation and doctors are as effective as rec commons, and I've continued to say that it is not. now ur trying to tell me u build rec commons after u go past size 1 bases? this is a complete change. and is more proof of ur switching back.

the "tie up support" was refering to using minerals on supporting formers, not using up the free support, I'm sorry if u construed it differently. I build MORE than 1 former/base usually after I have crawlers.

its completely ridiculous for an FM'er to use psych allocation that early, why are u in FM? allocating even 2 energy/base to pscyh would practically eliminate the advantage of FM at that stage of teh game, yet ur still stuck w/ pacifism.

u also still seem to a)be working under the dillusion that ur always zak, b)think ur in coop game where u get ridiculous tech rates, or c)think u have utopian starting conditions to do wut u want
all three are stupid assumptions, no normal circumstances(yes again we must qualify as normal cuz u can get lucky) would let ne faction zak have industrial auto as early as ur saying.

everytime I'm done, ur biggest pedistol remains taht u don't like how I insult. well I find ppl don't normally like how they're insulted, so fear not, u r not alone.

[Basil]

Originally posted by Flubber

Crawlers are usable by 2120 by Zak, Morgan and the Consciousness in "normal games" with any regular distribution at all regarding rivers, monoliths or energy specials.

[snip]

I remain unconvinced that rec commons are needed very often before 2130.

Crawlers by 2120? No need for rec commons before 2130?

Ah, you are using directed research! I never use directed research; with blind or double-blind research one does not get crawlers by 2120. (At least, I don't!)

And not having crawlers one doesn't have so many other alternatives besides rec commons. So I think it's fair to say that your statement is only true for those normal games with directed research.

Also, I will note that the Peacekeepers and the Drones are unique in their ability to have size 2 bases in free market at transcend without either allocating a lot of energy to psych or having drone problems. I.e. most factions wouldn't work so well with this tactic at Transcend.

Quite the ICS you are running, too. Of course, it makes even more sense in the scenario you described than it usually does .

The point of this post is to make some of your assumptions explicit, not to disagree with your (Flubber) strategy. I certainly agree that what you describe is a very effective way to win games.

[Flubber]

Basil

you are correct that I was using directed research and that i probably should have been more explicit on that point. But in my defense i was countering the idea that necessarily everyone will have researched Doc psych so early that Mriam would not be able to trade it. In a double-blind world, pretty much any strategy becomes contingent on the tech lotto.

generally my comments now are based on MP with directed research. Although, like you, my main efforts at SP were double blind. Its just very difficult to have a "double blind discussion" since a forest strat for example or heavy use of crawlers could be impossible.

As for the rec commons thing, yavoons misdirection notwithstanding, I never said that I do not use them. What I said is that I do not use them early and consequently put little or no priority on the tech. In the early game, my focus is on getting out another base or another crawler. Doctors with crawlers or psych allocation are not permanent ways to stop drones. Instead they are temporary measures that most of my bases employ intermittently for the first 30-50 years of the game.

To your list, I would add the morganites. I am observing tau in the DiP3 game use 20% psych quite effectively to keep his bases happy. This can be applied when needed,. But to broaden the scope lets consider other factions that do not need an early rec commons

Hive-- with police-- do they ever need them?
Cult-- with FM next to useless, police takes care of early problems
Gaians-- inability to go FM means police
University-- cash a bunch of crawlers for the VW

But as a directed researcher--EVERY tech that you take delays other techs-- The main reason I do not build a rec commons early is that the tech is not on my main beelines which are ecology,crawlers and weapons--Depending on the faction, this can take up most of the early years and by then i am hoping to trade for social psych and eth calc to prepare for the pop boom.

One comment on ICS- I guess i sort of do that BUT I usually have visions of a bunch of crappy bases which is not what I do. Instead I will FM for a good long while and am fairly content to have a bunch of size ones with crawled food or resources and a rec tanks. The idea is to switch to planned around the time creches become available and ride the boom-- rec commons usually get built during the boom after creches. Although I will usually have a base or two that are designed to stay at size one(in rocky areas) and pump out military when I am later in FM

As with anything, I am not rigid in my approach. depending on tech and terrain this gets altered a lot.

[Flubber]

. . and I am in the camp that thinks that Morgan needs no fixing.

The believers, well, I don't play them well but they would be so much easier if the starting tech was ecology instead of social psych. Starting with the ability to build formers from the outset would be quite a boost. I'm not certain they need it but it would be the minimal tinkering that would address a lot of prob;ems related to their slow start.

[knowhow2]

You wanna game with all factions being balanced? Play with seven UoP or seven PKs, or seven miriam.... and so on. This is what make SMAC fun the strenght and the weekness of each faction. You think Beliviers are week? You don't know how to play them. Simply as that.