Fixing The two weakest factions?

[vostok]

IMO i think the Believers and Morgan are the two 'weakest' links whose bonuses are only occasionally better than their drawbacks. This is a conclusion im suspecting most people have. So... how to fix them?

Easy actually. Bump Morgans' Hab reduction up to -2 (from -3), which gives them at least half a chance. Theyre a civ dependant upon energy production but can't -get- energy out of 4 pop bases. This is pretty obvious imo.

Believers? This was a lot trickier, and nothing came to mind immediately so i perused the faction files until i came upon an unused attribute "INTEREST" which gives a percentage sum bonus per turn on the enery youve accumulated in the bank. So i think INTEREST 10, to represent a church's tithe, goes along swimmingly with their dependace on probe teams for late game combat and gives them more opportunity to ammass needed credits.

Anythoughts? Civs that are worse off and need changing more?

[RedFred]

While I agree that the AI doesn't do such a great job of playing Morgan, I think that no human needs to play him with any additional advantages. There are no shortage of Morgan specialists and supporters and with good reason.

The Believers are a different kettle of fish. They have less supporters and I find them difficult to play given that I am not a natural momentum player. And even if I was, the Cult, the Hive or the Spartans seem much easier to do well with. But, in my games at least, they can be a decent opponent until I get well ahead of them in the "Conquer" part of the tech tree.

The other faction that many feel is weak in the hands of the AI is SMACX's Cult of Planet. But they can be a lot of fun to play without any modification for a human.

So I guess my point is that play balance is nice, but it is not critical to me that all fourteen factions are equally strong, whether it be in the hands of a human or the AI. Sometimes you want to try a harder faction so it is nice that they are there. And there are plenty of other ways of making the game's AI more challenging other than slight mods to a couple of factions.

[Mr. President]

The Morganites are a very strong faction if they survives long enough for their bases to break size 4. Sometimes, the computer-controlled Morganites get lucky by not starting with any aggressive neighbors. If they do land next to Miriam, Yang, Santiago, Lal, Domai, Svensgaard, Marr, etc., they might struggle.

I've had a computer-controlled Morganite army come at me with legions of hovertanks, needlejets, and shard paratroopers, while using Free Market economics, building all my favorite projects, and generally having the strongest economy on Planet. Morgan can be very strong - it all depends on the opening.

For me, the Cult of Planet is much weaker than the Morganites. -1 Economy and Industry are a much bigger weakness than -1 Support. The latter is easily fixed by using Police State or putting clean reactors on everything. -1 Economy can be circumvented by building many cities; not so with the Industry. Since you can't use Wealth as the Cult, you have to go Planned just to get production speed back to neutral. Eudaimonia fixes all your problems in the economic sector in one shot, but until you get there your production will lag behind everyone else's; and capturing native life for armies is only effective for so long.

[yavoon]

eud is not a social engineering choice in my eyes. its a discount in building the voice of planet and ascent to transcendence.

I mean really, could it get ne higher up in the tech tree?

[Sprayber]

Let Morgan get on a large island/small continent by himself and he can be a real tough nutt to beat if you don't take him out.

[Vytae]

.

Morgan is a very strong faction but has one major weakness. The early game race to hab complex. There very dependant on a good opening but that +1 economy its godly once you get enough nutrients and above hab 4. Late game if you manage to hang in there and get euadomina(spellingblah) it becomes Possible for Morgan to do what no other faction can do IMO take back the game from a dominating empire. with a +4 econ and +3 industry if you have some decent energy income (you prolly do if you survived this long) you can often outright buy transcendance before another person can crawler it (ive managed to get over 20k per turn from my main base alone,transedance is only around 76k credits to buy)

Believers are as said above a whole nother kettle of fish. The -2 research fatally cripples any attempt at builder believers (although its possible) believers are meant to be total agression,extort credits and research from other people. Problem is,in mp games people are stubbron and would rather go down in flames then give up tech ,any tech. on huge maps where believers cant get to you quick,you have a good chance of overwhelming there sad economy mid game.

On another note,the AI plays Morgans badly,and Believers very very well.

[Black Sunrise]

If MP believers, team up with someone else, and run your economy at 0% labs. Bye-bye disadvantage. Not effective in SP, very effective in MP.

Indra

[Googlie]

Absolutely, Black Sunrise.

The Believers aren't about research, but about 'taking'

get to Fundy and Power, and you have +3 probe (immunity from mind control) and +3 morale on defense (+2 on offense, but with the +25% bonus)

So why research - just conquer and steal. But being allied with a researching faction - being the 'muscle' if you will for that faction, is a great combination

About the only drawback is poor industry, but the Cloning Vats remove Power's -2 effect, and Planned always gives the +1 boost. so that would be the optimum combo - Fundy/Planned/Power, with the CV.

G.

[yavoon]

heh, power is prolly the worst longterm social choice. u have ne idea how painful -2 industry is? again, yall are just kinda theorizing off the top of ur head instead of actually knowing about these things. sure u can get the vats, and I'd like to know the probability that miriam is the first to get the vats in MP. ne guesses? I'm sure she'll beat morgan and zak to them. u know this is where irony comes in too, wealth is better then power w/ the vats for me.

u can zero labs in SP and win, I dont know if its the most effective thing to do, but surely its not overly complicated, make many probe, foil/land steal tech massive tech from whoever the tech leader is. and really -2 research isn't all that crippling once u get past the midgame and stuff. if ur miriam and u haven't had turn advantage leveraged against u in horrendous ways by like year 120, then ur gna do a lot better.

[Flubber]

Yavoon

I am curious as to your perspective on the Drones since they share the -2 research that is so crippling for the Believers BUT also have an industry bonus which you should view as very valuable given your dismissal of the Power choice simply because of the industry minus.

But to keep it on topic and address a lot of what is being said here and in yavoons thread

1. Many, many players go nowhere near social psych in the early days. I am in a (cooperative) game with tau ceti and his morganites do not have ANY rec commons by 2128 . Nor do my drones nor qantaga's PKs. Only one of us has the social psych tech and for now, the others do not want it. Why would anyone want a rec commons when all you are doing is pumping out bases. Oh and all three of us are running FM.

2. I agree that -2 research is not that crippling later-- it is the early game when it really hurts. The game helps that though-- simply find an AI and suck up a little. The tech gifts flow like a river. In one MP game, an AI has now gifted me a total of 5 techs. Between trades, gift and theft a catch-up is possible.

3. As for morgan, played properly it is reasonably strong faction. While ICS is a tactic for any faction it is most suited to Morgan. The Hab limits are a major drawback but the guy generates so much energy he can buy off the world.

4. All the SE choices have their place-- While obviously, some are better more often, a player that dismisses any SE choice is exhuibiting a closed mind

[yavoon]

the drones are my favorite faction, too bad they're in smax? drones are up there w/ zak. +industry is my favorite category, every extra +industry u get it just gets more brutal.

I'm curious, if none of u go rec commons, when do the first SP's come in? thats usually how I get my pre-crawler SP, is a rec commons base. is it just because no1 gets it that, no1 needs to worry about the early SP's being snatched? ur all running transcend difficulty games, w/ no rec commons, no human genome and FM? all ur bases riot at size 2, and some riot at size 1. I don't get it, am I missing somethign? where are u getting drone control? massive food? this seems like a really dumbass move to go on a transcend game w/ no commons no human genome and to run FM. I mean, after 6 bases, ur bases start rioting at size 1(as the b. drones get lumped onto bases). are u all nerve stapling like mad? maybe thats it.

ICS is not made for morgan, morgan just needs ICS more, cuz it has less early vertical potential. Morgan really only has a post hab complex boom, and thats only in smax.

I MIGHT use power for a very short time, if I had like 4-5 commando infantry, and I wnted to move them to elite, and do some major damage. but beyond that, I wouldn't touch it w/ a 10 foot pole. industry is just too important of a category, +1 industry over 20 bases producing 9 minerals each is an extra 20 minerals a turn. thats just sily advantage

[Flubber]

The drones are one of my favorites as well since I love industry but I have also learned to enjoy the cult (played in an entirely different manner of course) so while I appreciate the benefit of an industry bonus, there are other ways to play.

Nope-- I don't think you are missing a thing. The game mentioned is a cooperative one and therefore it is not typical (we are much further up the tech tree) but the point is that even though we could have rec commons, we (each individually-- we don't really discuss facility builds)have chosen not to yet since they are not yet needed.

As for drones they have been no problem for the Free Drones due to the factional attributes. As for the morganites, they use a doctor until the next CP takes off or psych allocation. At 2128, we are just now having to worry about the Bur. drone problem.

Obviously we will need SPS soon but that is coming along. My SP building base is a size one working on its 4th crawler (no SP started yet) so I do not believe that production will be an issue.

Soon (after building creches-- I did accept ethical calc to go demo ) I will move out of FM and spend some time in Demo/Planned/Wealth for the building and pop boom. So police will help and somewhere along there I will be looking at the rec commons option BUT it might be just as economic to use psych allocation, or with enough crawled food to make it a specialist base .


In a more usual game as ZAK, for instance, I will not research social psych for a long time. Ind auto is the first beeline (and is easily attainable by 2120), and formers,crawlers and CPs are built. No base is allowed to grow to riot. Then you cash the crawlers for the virtual world and the problem is delayed for a bunch of years. I'm doing this in a game at 2135 and have not yet researched social psych.

As some other factions I have also used the permanent size 1 base tactic--or the specialist base tactic-- There are lots of ways to deal with drones.

The point of all this is that yes, rec commons are important but there are enough other ways to deal with drones that social psych is not necessarily among the first 6-8 techs on the must-have list for some players. Miriam can often find someone willing to trade for social psych. I confess that its a tech that I almost never research myself.. When you need social psych it is easy enough to get in a trade.

[yavoon]

I don't see how early game pscyh allocation could even approach the efficiency of a rec commons, besides the fact that its instant and convenient.

I mean wut do size one bases bring in in energy? 3? so u need wut? 50% psych? so u have FM going they bring in 5, but the psych needed to quell the drone negates the FM advantage. do u play on rare native life or huge worlds? I'm thinking it must be one of the two. added to that u dont have ne of the +% psych modifiers that are so plentiful later in teh game.

permanent size 1 base in so inflexible. get attacked, u die, have a mindworm show up on ur crawlers, u hurt bad, afterall, ur in FM w/o trance.

the food thing, its WAY hard to get enuff food early. u can build a rec. tanks, but thats counterproductive to your whole no infrastructure approach, and u don't have the tech neway. no food can get over 2 unless its a nut bonus, or u get the wx paradigm, but the wx paradigm comes way too late, especially w/ a buncha size 1 bases. certainly you can't rely on a nut bonus in every base can u? and then u gotta grow ur drone control, and still one doctor=1 drone, rec commons=2 drones. so u need 2 pop points just to equal a rec commons.

I jus tdon't see how the #'s workout, the best early drone control is rec commons. unless your under police state. and even then I nearly prefer rec commons.

but yah, ur ina cooperative game, not even wroth talking about. who are u facing? the grand pooba, u need 2 partners?

[Flubber]

Originally posted by yavoon


I mean wut do size one bases bring in in energy? 3? so u need wut? 50% psych? so u have FM going they bring in 5, but the psych needed to quell the drone negates the FM advantage. do u play on rare native life or huge worlds? I'm thinking it must be one of the two. added to that u dont have ne of the +% psych modifiers that are so plentiful later in teh game.

Actually --my buddies the morganites are the ones using psych. I looked at an old turn and they have 6 size one bases and their energy production ranges from 6 to 11 IIRC. (they have some rivers, a couple of energy specials etc. and of course +4econ) They are running 20% psych which is enough to make the sole citizen a talent in 5 of 6 bases (so they can grow to 2 easily). This is all without restrictions lifted. All but the pact income would be available in a "normal game".

And no and no to huge world and rare life. Except in the rarest of circumstances I do not get suprised by native life and how exactly does it get to attack the base if you have sensors or just a decent defensive system? Running FM you can still attack with just better than even odds and thats what I generally do, kill them-- I have not lost a base to worms in AGES-- early worms are pathetically weak and the FM penalty does not apply to PSI defense anyway-- I have killed 2 in the last 3 turns while in FM-- later the fungus is moved back and the sensors provide ample warning-- Trance is nice worm defense but I want to be killing THEM for the cash

The minerals you spend on a rec commons early, I would invest in an additional crawler, former or other unit. So more fungus gets cleared, or more sensors put out.

I agreed earlier that the cooperative game was not typical but it is an example where I am pacted early with 3 players and can see what they are doing. Tech is not an issue since we could all build rec commons if we wanted-- we just don't need to YET--


The permanent size 1 base is just a simple tactic to allow military to travel outside the borders-- not all bases will be that way. so I won't have a "buncha" size-1s forever


YAVOON
"the food thing, its WAY hard to get enuff food early. u can build a rec. tanks, but thats counterproductive to your whole no infrastructure approach, and u don't have the tech neway. no food can get over 2 unless its a nut bonus, or u get the wx paradigm, but the wx paradigm comes way too late, especially w/ a buncha size 1 bases. certainly you can't rely on a nut bonus in every base can u? and then u gotta grow ur drone control, and still one doctor=1 drone, rec commons=2 drones. so u need 2 pop points just to equal a rec commons. "

---

The food thing is not hard at all, you just crawl some food for faster growth which can become another size one base.
I have never advocated a NO-INFRASTRUCTURE APPROACH. Most bases (except perhaps a planned "small base") will get a rec tank as early as possible to boost growth (I may sidetrack to biogenetics if the land is arid). Most bases will get a rec commons EVENTUALLY but not in the first 30 years. I thought we were talking about TIMING here as a side issue on your assertion that Miriam would not be able to trade tech since EVERYONE will have social psych by 2130 since it is so darn important. I will not try to defend the idea that rec commons are not good drone control-- I never said that. What I do say is that they :

1.are not necessary EARLY for most factions
2. would take build time which could be better used to build a former, crawler or CP
3. cause an unnecessary early sidetrack from the more important techs of biogenetics, ind auto, centauri ecology
4. will be available when needed through an easy tech trade with most any AI by the time they are needed (pop boom time IMHO)



"but yah, ur ina cooperative game, not even wroth talking about. who are u facing? the grand pooba, u need 2 partners"


Its "Democracy in Peril"-- a scenario where Yang has subjugated the Ai university, consciousness and spartans-- and the humans are the PKs, Morganites and Drones. The maker, Googlie, has tweaked the AI to make them stronger and given them pre-terraformed positions etc. AND given Yang the empath guild so you have to earn your infiltration. Googlie has promised they will be a challenge so yes I guess Yang is the grand pooba.



Yavoon but I guess Tau, Qantaga and I must be dumbasses since neither of us has not built a rec commons yet. Strangely though, we have managed to have no unrest.

[yavoon]

rec commons allows 2 additional workers, crawler allows one addition resource to be brought in. I'd have to side w/ the rec commons on which is better. 11 energy in a size 1 base in year 2125? I must REALLY SUCK, cuz I hav enever done that. I mean ever.

wtf is this two energy specials on a river? or something completely insane, wut about the other bases? ur coop game is throwing off ur timing, ur expecting crawlers to be useable by like year 2120. which si silly unless yer zak. and I'm talking about worms that move into fungus then attack ur crawler. not worms after your base, u can't go out then attack w/ infantry units, so u have to move out, then defend, or move everythign in and wait.

I don't personally tie up support in formers until I have crawlers, which is like 2150, at which time I'd usually have a secret project done. obviously yer just spitting out answers at me w/o thinking. but lets look at crawlering food for doctors.

u crawler 2 food for one doctor, thats a crawler which can get killed, that gives u 1 pacified worker, and that only after the base has grown into it, against a rec commons that gives u 2. thats twice the value out of the rec commons. I mean its nice that ur naming alternatives, ur just not realizing that they aren't as good as the rec commons.
I like how u luv to reference ambiguous authority, like ur ****ing michael jordan.

its cute, it realy is