A Clockwork Lemon

[H0bbes]

Oh my, what have I started?

Well, I'm not into editing the alpha text, I haven't got the time to learn that, perhaps someone else wants to take up that challenge- I do like that idea though.

Some refining thoughts: How about a 5 human, no AI contest- SMAC to keep it simple. Each player will have an ultimate goal along the lines of Vel's suggestions as well as additional restrictions and conditions. Clues will be linked to the tech-tree, i.e. you research intellectual integrity, let the CMN know & he provides you with data relating to one faction. Each faction would have say 3 clues, the first clue for each faction linked to a different tech of the same level, i.e. one set of clues at level 3, one at 4, & the final at 6.

I'll take submissions for participation, reliable & experienced players only please. (If it works I'll be open to CMN'ing others. Register your interest here & via email: Hobbes I'd also like suggestiions from creative players who won't be participating as to goals/conditions etc. Perhaps we could put together a panel?

[Velociryx]

Thanks man....and I think the basic system could be worked out any number of ways, with complex objectives, and hints spanning multiple techs, proprietary (non researchable) techs that must be stolen from each faction, or generic ones to be researched, with no mention of which faction they belong to. Each of these, and probably a good number of other variations on the theme would make for dramatically different game play....now all we need to do is sit down and come up with a number of "missions" log them someplace so we can copy and paste into the txt files, and we're set!

-=Vel=-

[Avenoct]

I suggest playing through a game (well, at least the opening stages) with a CMN providing all hints first, then later trying a game with customized 'State Secrets' techs. This will enable whomever mucks about the text files some time to make sure all is well functionally. And yes, I volunteer myself for that, so I'd like to 'sit on the panel' when and if a game goes that way. I'd be interested in being a player in a CMN-hint game.

I will say the alpha.txt changes themselves wouldn't be hard at all. The only forseeable difficulty comes with forcing an MP savegame to 'Eat' the new rules. I've had some difficulty with that 'feature' before, so would want to test it out. It's the MP aspect that's quirky.

Smac is pretty limited in these regards physically, and certainly in some sense it's like trying to make a Donkey drive like a Racehorse. No matter what rules you choose, it's going to take some role-playing and imagination to make the Lemonade.

-Smack

[johndmuller]

In the test game, it might be a good idea to have several alternative goals for each faction. That way someone (the actual player) will be thinking about the objectives more intently than someone just imagining them and more than one set of goals can be at least partially test driven by just one set of players. Even when a player decides not to try something, they will doubtless have thought it through more thoroughly than a non-player would be able to.

[Zakharov VII]

Wow, these are fascinating ideas!

Wouldn't it also be interesting if instead of having "state secrets" as secret mission conditions, but by having something like:

Gaians start with Centauri Ecology, Ecological Engineering
University starts with Information Networks, Intellectual Integrity
Morganites start with Industrial Base, Industrial Automation
Hive starts with Doctrine: Loyalty
Spartans start with Doctrine: Mobility, Applied Physics
Believers start with Social Psych, Doctrine: Loyalty
Peacekeepers start with Biogenetics, Ethical Calculus

With Ecological Engineering, Intellectual Integrity, Industrial Automation, Doctrine Loyalty, Applied Physics, and Ethical Calculus being "state secrets" (disabled in alpha.txt). Then, to get these techs, you'd have to probe them from other factions...

Of course, things would have to be incredibly balanced (these were chosen pretty arbitrarily, making sure that Sister Miriam isn't the only source of her "state secret"), and maybe even the techs which have "state secrets" as pre-requisites would have to be modified (like Gene Splicing leads right to Environmental Economics, instead of through the "state secret" Ecological Engineering), since most of these techs are not obsolete until VERY late in the game, if ever (you'd better hope you have the Weather Paradigm if you haven't probed Ecological Engineering!). Better techs would have to be found for Hive/Spartans/Believers, as you could live without Loyalty and DEFINATELY without Physics. Intellectual Integrity isn't the greatest either, but non-lethal methods is really a nifty thing for all factions, though Morgan (running Free Market) could probably do without it.

EDIT: I have a better idea

Instead of giving individual techs out like this, how about just making 7 user-techs ("Gaian State Secret", "University State Secret", etc) with specific but very important attributes?

For example, the Gaians would start with Centauri Ecology and Gaian State Secret, which would maybe contain information on Super Formers, Condensers, Boreholes, Raise/Lower land, etc, and Green Economics.. These attributes would be taken out of Ecological Engineering and Advanced Ecological Engineering, making the Gaians the only source of this important terraforming advantage.

The University could have Network Nodes and Biology Labs and Knowledge value in their State Secret, making it very difficult for other factions to get early labs (first lab facility is Research Hospital, which is expensive and only +25%)

The Morganites could have Crawlers, or if that's too big an advantage (probably is), Energy Banks, Free Market, and Wealth, giving them a monopoly on the early-game money sources.

The Peacekeepers could have Children's Creches, Recycling Tanks, and Democracy in their secret, making them the *only* pop-boom-ables (need Golden Age, still, unless you get Planned from Hive)

The Hive could have Police State, Planned, Command Center, Perimiter Defense, giving them massive defensive (both local (police) and global (+2 land morale, perimiter defense)) and powerful industry.

The Spartans could have Rovers, Power, and Bioenhancement Centers, giving them, well, lots of fast, high morale troops .

The Believers could have Fundamentalism, Probe Team special unit (cheaper than rover + probe equipment, maybe high morale and armored - you can make special units like that, right?), and the Encryption thing (x2 subvert cost) - I tried not to make Miriam's secrets too critical as she's un-infiltratable from the beginning, if she's starting with Fundamentalism!! But this should make Miriam a desirable choice for this game, as she'd have such good probe actions that she could get everyone's secrets more easily...

Then, most of social engineering and the early facilities are based on state secrets, leaving less infrastructure to build early on, and (hopefully) more probe team action to get these secrets!

Hopefully, there will also be more of a fight for Planetary Datalinks (hey, if two people have done the work before you, why should you?), and Hunter-Seeker (overpowered?)...HSA would add an interesting twist to the beginning tech (and possibly secrets) trade..."If I trade my secrets, when (if) I get the HSA, someone else will have my secrets, and do I want to make them vulnerable...?"

Perhaps everyone's secret should have a secret project associated with it, like Gaians/Weather Paradigm, University/Virtual World, Morganites/Merchant Exchange, Hive/Command Nexus, Spartans/Cyborg Factory, Peacekeepers/Empath Guild or maybe even Clinical Immortality ?, Believers/Hunter-Seeker (major denial!!)

Maybe, if the secret project thing is used, the Believers' probe bonus should be lowered so it's as high as it can be without being immune when running Fundamentalism. Then, they have to actually TRY to protect their Hunter-Seeker, and actually have a reason to build it.

Finally (a musing), maybe if you could get a hold of Fundamentalism by the time Thought Control came around, but still had the sole knowledge of your secrets, you should run Fundy/Thought Control for the immunity ? I might consider it, and I almost NEVER use Fundamentalism, and only use Thought Control until Cybernetic comes along!

Z

[knowhow2]

The Believers could have Fundamentalism, Probe Team special unit (cheaper than rover + probe equipment, maybe high morale and armored - you can make special units like that, right?), and the Encryption thing (x2 subvert cost) - I tried not to make Miriam's secrets too critical as she's un-infiltratable from the beginning, if she's starting with Fundamentalism!! But this should make Miriam a desirable choice for this game, as she'd have such good probe actions that she could get everyone's secrets more easily...
Z

IIRC the +3 probe rating doesn't mak you un-infiltratable just un-subvertible - both troops and bases. You can still both extract techs and likes.

[Chowlett]

I'd be interested in being on the panel - it sounds like it would be great fun to play about with. I'm also probably willing to CMN a game like this, but not atm to play - I'm just not reliable enough (right Vultur? )