Supply Crawler?

[Velociryx]

Here ya go, YT (and anybody else who might be interested)....I played out fifty turns of a new game, just to use as an illustration.....save game file available if anybody wants it.

Settings: SMACX, Huge Planet, 50-70% Water, Lots of Erosion, Average worms, Lots of clouds, random opponents, directed research, ironman, transcend level

2100: Free tech taken: Centauri Ecology

2102: Pod poppin! Founded Uni Base at the head of a river, right on an energy resource! AND, got 75 credits from the pod!

2103: Base 2 founded

2105: Tech Advance: Biogenetics

2107: Alien ship lands// Tech Advance: Social Psych

2110: Tech Advance: Secrets of the human brain - Free Tech: Planetary Networks (Switching to Planned)

2114: Tech Advance: Industrial Base//Upgraded my existing scout patrols to Trance Scouts

2121: Base 3 Founded.

2123: Tech Advance: Industrial Economics//Base 4 Founded.

2130: Base 5 Founded.

2132: Tech Advance: Industrial Automation (adding Wealth)//Continent mapped out...looks like room for 14 bases total. Begin dramatic slowdown of base expansion plans, considering the remaining room....after the current wave of colony pods find homes, I'll turn my attention to development (and crawlers!)

2135: Base 6 Founded.

2137: Bases 7 & 8 Founded.

2139: Tech Advance: Doctrine Mobility.

2141: Base 9 Founded.

2144: Bases 10 & 11 Founded.

2146: Tech Advance: Doctrine Flexibility

2150: Pod for Base 12 in position for deployment next turn

As is plainly visible in the save file, I'm prepping Relativity School and Zarya Sunrise to be the first of my "Project Bases" (they've already got two supply crawlers built each). Relativity School, due to placement, might seem like a weaker choice, but it's surrounded by mineral specials, and will likely need less "assistance" than Zarya in the completion of the initial projects.

I've still got room for two more bases on the continent (another one right on an energy resource square), but I'm in no particular hurry to add them....I'm happy with the pace of development, and besides that, theres a good bit of fungus around where the two remaining bases will go, so I can expect a bit of lag in their development. I am reluctant, as yet, to switch to Democracy though, as the gains will be minimal compared to the added support costs....and besides, I don't want anything slowing me down where those projects are concerned....so, I'll be happy with my hefty +3 Industry bonus and just build stuff for a while.

Next game phase: 2151-2200: Goals: Key projects I want to go for: HGP (for switch to market)//WP (early boreholes and speedy forming)//Virtual World (to totally eliminate pre-boom drone problems)//Planetary Energy Grid (love that cash!)//Empath Guild (lock down the elections)//Command Nexus (Counteract Wealth's morale hit)
Get that spiffy tech that lets me build the Planetary Energy Grid!!! Also get the TreeFarm Tech. Ideally, I'd like to have my last two bases dropped into place, sea formers built at all coastal bases and out doing their thing, transports built at all coastal bases and out doing THEIR thing, and probe foils built at all coastal bases out grabbing techs, maps, and generally stirring the pot. Additionally, I'd like to see all CC's and TreeFarms built, and all prototyping done. We'll see how it goes....

-=Vel=-

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Vel,

Very nice expansion. On Huge world you've gotten 12 or nearly 12 bases by 2150. Looks like you got a little lucky in that no Progentitors landed on your continent. I hate when that happens because more often than not you really need to abandon expansion in favor of probe teams and prototyping. Speaking of prototyping, about which year do you start the prototyping activities to keep you militarily secure? I would guess you want to lock down the Command Nexus and Children's Creche in place first to get maximum effect for morale. Circa 2170's perhaps (aided with crawlers no doubt)?

Second question since you should not have hit the bueracracy warning yet, do you regroup/pause first by ensuring HGP before going forward with next round of expansions or do you blow right past beuracracy limits and go to thick expansion for police effect to quell drones (or do you advocate nerve stapling)?

[Velociryx]

Hey bud!

As to the expansion warnings...yep...already hit them....at the founding of base 10 (remember, I'm running Planned/Wealth at present, so my threshold is lower where the extra drones are concerned on account of the relatively poor efficiency rating I have....might be a good argument to switch to Dem earlier than I had envisioned, to avoid drones created via expansion....I'll consider that, but still prolly will wait until I get the initial round of projects done (HGP and WP).

As to prototyping, I've already been planning for that....I've got some landlocked bases which (in SMAX) have fewer things they need to build, so I'll prolly start my prototyping sometime after the second wave of projects is done (most notably the VW, but also the Command Nexus, if I get the tech for it anytime soon). At present, I don't have much to prototype, but that will change as soon as I start cranking out those probe foils and sniffing around for nearby factions. I don't usually have any hard and fast rules about prototyping, but I can tell you that if I see ANY sign of trouble as my scouts begin heading out, that (and the acquisition of decent combat techs) will increase in overall priority dramatically.... My main plan is to find some cheeseball faction close by and rape them for techs...I really don't care if they declare against me or not....they prolly will anyway, and at least I'll get the drop on them by grabbing a few juicy techs I've been ignoring....

As to Nerve Stapling....nawww....I never use it because of my penchance for running market, and am likely done expanding for a while anyway....at present, it's time to work on boosting up those economies of scale and prepping for a big ol' pop boom, but....phase two of the expansion will be into the sea....the cool thing about that is that sea pods, with their built in rec. tanks will be fully supported at size three when I get the PTS in a while....so when I sacrifice a pop point in my coastal bases, I'll see an immediate net gain of two....that'll be sweet indeed....

-=Vel=-
[This message has been edited by Velociryx (edited March 31, 2000).]

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Hey Vel,

Last few days I've seen you here more than in the last few months. Self imposed exile must have been lifted. (Kind of feel like the Man in the Iron Mask? )

Anyhoo...

Another quick question your rate of expansion is quite impressive. I must be concentrating too much on producing formers than on colony pods in early days. What is your normal build que? I find a typical build que to be something like.

1. Former - Rushed
2. Pod - Comes along on its own about the same time as size 2 city thereby preventing drones.
3. Recycle - Rushed after 2 - 3 turns
4. Former - Rushed after 2 - 3 turns
5. Pod - Rushed to avoid 2 pop point and drones
6. Garison unit 1-1t-1

I know something isn't quite right here. I'm thinking I need a Garrison unit much earlier to allow size 2 but am loath to do so b/c I want my second former w/o support issue.

B/C I like two formers per base I find myself able to keep well ahead of my base building. WP becomes my first and foremost SP, HGP right behind then VW. WP is first in my mind as it allows me not only boreholes which are of limited use in early game but moreso condensors. I have fallen in love with these and make sure I prebuild right next to my ssnsor (i.e. new base site) a condensor/farm. 4 nutrients w/o gene splice allow even land based colonies good growth Size 3 Planetary bases are fully supported by base square and condensor/farm square allowing the other two citizens to work mine and/or borehole from the get go. Nothing like a new base with 11 - 13 minerals to start (assuming I can really prebuild). Remainder of squares usually goes forest.

[EternalSpark]

I figured since Vel commented on using Wealth, I'll ask it here...

I'm playing Yang. Should I use Power or Wealth? Power gives me troops better morale, but my Hive-Given industry is gone. If I do wealth, I'll be getting some mney Ill prolly need, but at the expense of morale... but if I'm the Hive, I'll be dealing in using many many troops, so morale wouldn't be important... or am I wrong? I usually go PoliceState/Planned otherwise

[Velociryx]

You'll prolly get lots of differing opinions on that, but if it was me, I'd use Wealth, and here's why:

You're absolutely right about Power totally negating your hefty industry bonus, whereas wealth enhances it. If you're playing Yang, then unless you just ignored it completely, you've no doubt gotten the Command Nexus project for yourself, which totally negates Wealth's one negative, meaning that you can still crank out halfway decent troops....and if you're using Planned/Wealth, it doesn't really matter that they're not elites, since you can replace your losses significantly faster than anybody else in the game....you don't need great troops....just more troops, and you can do that easily with the heinous industry advantage you can create with Yang by running Planned/Wealth
-=Vel=-

[YT]

Vel: The only problem I can see is that your stategy is very specific to certain techs. Specifically, Industrial Economics to give you access to those crawlers, and then the appropriate techs for HGP and VW SPs. Here's the rub: I usually play blind research. So I could still take advantage of your expansion stratagy (blind almost always gives you CentEcol for formers), but not neccisarilly the crawler rush of projects, or expansion help, etc. On the other hand, that's one thing that usually encourages me to start in on early facilities sooner (such as network nodes).

I don't know why, but directed research, while a valid rule in the game, just feels like an easy way out to me. Same goes for specifying details of Planet. I usually generate a random map, including sea %, fungus abundance, raininess, but not including size (since you have to pick anyway, I usually pick huge). This means that your beautiful strategy (and it is beautiful ) won't always be available, especially depending on ocean size. I'm just more comfortable with the variability, and sometimes extreme challenge (Planet cult with no fungus? -shudder-).

------------------
Yours Truly

[Velociryx]

Howdy YT, and you're absolutely correct there....the strategy really IS tied to certain key techs, and I too, generally play blind unless I'm setting up a game to illustrate a particular purpose or principle....even with Blind Research though, by dictating which of the four areas you will research under, you can generally snag those few key techs you need in record time...granted, likely not as efficiently as with directed, but you'll still be well ahead of the curve...the only thing is that not ALL the projects will be as easy to get...specifically, you might lose the Empath Guild and Xenoempathy Dome to Deirdre if you focus on the Build techs long enough to get Industrial Auto, but hey....with a burgenoning population and hordes of probe foils, that should not be much of a loss....


Specifics:
In the game I posted the timeline for (as the UoP), the first thing I'd do would be to set techs to Explore, in the hopes that my first tech would be Cent. Ecology (assuming I didn't get it at random via the freebie).

After that, I'd shift my focus to Discover to pick up Biogen, and then to Build to pick up Soc. Psych...after that, I'd go back to Discover until I snagged SOB and the freebie that comes with it, and then set to Build until Ind. Auto showed it's face. After that, I'd head back to Explore to pick up the mobility techs and green stuff, then back to build for pretty much the rest of the game. In all, it might take you 15-25 more turns having to do it that way, but the principles would remain about the same.

-=Vel=-
[This message has been edited by Velociryx (edited March 31, 2000).]

[kaz]

Hey Vel, you seem to be a very efficient player, and I wanted your opinion on a tactic.

During my initial expansion, I usually set my second base to building a former, then a Command Center, then use that base to produce the garrison scouts for every new base(rushing to gain a turn here and there).
When the pop seems about to jump(two to three), I build a pod.

Personally, as an old Spartan player, I'm addicted to upgraded troops. When I get Bioenhancement Centers and the Trained ability, I usally regarrison with (post monolith) Scout Elites, that I then spot upgrade to Clean/"whatever my purpose is" troops.

I also don't see the value of Wealth, or even Power for that matter. The bonuses just don't seem worth the price(s).

[This message has been edited by kaz (edited March 31, 2000).]

[Velociryx]

Hey Kaz!

A very good idea, and it brings to light the notion of specializing your bases to specific purposes. The only thing I would say is that, especially in the very early game, setting aside one of your bases for that purpose would seem to slow you down....remember that the longer you keep all your bases churning out pods, the longer you enjoy true geometic growth, and the moment you pull that first base off of that curve you start to lose at least some of those benefits in terms of another player who may be pursuing the same basic early game expansion strategy somewhere across the pond.

Essentially (and here comes my Economics training again), what we're talking about is the Opportunity Cost of pulling a base off the Colony Pod line early and beginning to crank out those scouts. Over the course of the first fifty turns, that could easily translate into a 1-2 base advantage your opponent has over you....giving him a bigger overall base to work with. Of course, at some point, the decision must be made to begin to specialize and do things besides building yet more pods....as the game develops further, people begin branching, and flexing the economic might they have accumulated, but if you start flexing too early, you risk having comparatively under-developed muscles.

Consider this alternative: If you begin building a CC while the base is still size one, it might take you....8-10 turns to finish it, and then 2-3 turns to build each of the scouts....that's a pretty significant time investment, but....if you go ahead and do that breakneck expansion, get your crawlers out and pump that base up to somewhere in the neighbor hood of 20 minerals a turn....now you're talking about being able to build the Command Center (or hell, just build the Nexus at that point) VERY rapidly, and (with only minor rushing costs each turn) you can crank out a plasma garrison each turn.....that's pretty sweet.

The main determinant though, on which is the more appropriate course to follow, will be the flow of the current game. I mean, if your scouts find evidence that you're not alone on your starting landmass, then by all means, pull one (and maybe more!) bases off to start bulking your attack and defense capabilities, but so long as you have no evidence of having to share your starting landmass, I'd wait til you filled it up with new bases before starting building up the military machine.

I agree with you about Power as a SE choice....it rots 'til you build the SP that negates its negatives, and even then it's not really my first choice.

Wealth though, that's another matter....for me, I'd rather have scads of fast produced cheesy troops than a handful of really good ones....my thinking there is the ol' "all your eggs in one basket" idea, and the fact that your troops still only get one attack a turn (two if you're using rovers, three if the rovers are elites), but even my cheesy troops, with the proper defenses, can inflict significant damage...IE - A very green artillery piece sitting in my base is still gonna give your troops a hard time in the sense that they won't be able to heal between combat rounds. Also, consider the Children's Creche....totally negates Wealth's one negative AND provides me a defensive bonus to boot. My troops still won't be as good as yours, but they'll be able to hold their own.

Perhaps the most compelling argument though is the fact that my very green troops (cheaper to build, on account of Wealth's Industry bonus) will move up in morale VERY quickly if I take them out trolling for worms and stuff, giving me good solid troops bought for a discount.

-=Vel=-
[This message has been edited by Velociryx (edited March 31, 2000).]

[kaz]

Vel,
The extra Morale in the very early game is to keep the mindworms off. There is nothing sadder than watching a new base get nixted by two worms right off the IoD(or even worse, have them take out two facilities and pop from an established base.) Trance is great, but it doesn't help Green units very well, for some odd reason!?!?!?!?

Anyway, the minerals for those Garrison units are going to be spent anyway, as your new bases will need garrisons. The only factor is the maintenance cost of the Command Center(2, if I am not mistaken).

And another thing, I often go "pod popping" quite early, which means I can usually get my Command Center completed in a few turns(well, maybe 50% of the time). Can you agree that--in MP--this kind of gamble could pay off?

You brought up another interesting point. . . Supply Crawlers. How quickly can you get them on Blind? I always seem unable to get Industrial Automation until about 2200, which is WAY too long for my tastes. I'd be happy if it was my sixth or seventh tech(the five or six required plus Centauri Ecology) I've tried pure Build, but I usually have to get the majority of the Level Two techs before it pops up.

On a side note, I've tried playing the Data Angels purely for the fact that they can do a decent defense(Probes, and then stolen prototypes from comp. players), while only being three or four techs away from Industrial Automation. My play improves dramtically once I get Supply Crawlers, as I efficiently build SP's, as well as gain the ability to turn a size one base into an industrial giant.

[This message has been edited by kaz (edited March 31, 2000).]

[Velociryx]

Hey Og....yep...at least for a little while...I'm taking a vacation from the site....::grin::

Now, as to build queues...it's my personal belief that you're over-building early on, and that's hobbling your development. Consider the main reason for focusing on getting a terrain square cranking out two nutrients for your base: You want this to hasten your growth from size one to size to, in order to hasten your early game expansion. Oftentimes, you don't have to do anything special to get a terrain square with two nutrients....Nut-resources give that to you automatically (and then some, in many cases), Monoliths, and rolling/rainy squares. If you have ANY of those in your base's production radius, you're a step ahead of the game, because your former can move right into planting forests and road-building to help with expansion.

A secondary consideration for having a terrain square producing two nutrients is that it enables your bases to reach a maximum size of 3. This is huge...and there are a few subtle implications here, which I'll go into in a moment.

Now, to the central question: It's become game standard for me to have three distinct base build schemes:

My initial two bases

My "early expansion" bases (the exact number varies as I will explain, but generally bases 2-10), and then "the rest"

For my first two bases, my build queues go:
Former (seldom rushed, unless, per the game I detailed earlier, I get some quick cash...my immediate goal is to save cash for the switch to Planned, so I tend to be stingy in the VERY early game unless I'm Morgan)
Scout
Former
Pods

The early expanders get the following builds:
Former
Scout
Pods (skipping the second former)

And, here's the rub....depending on the layout of the continent, by the time I get my 8th to 10th base established, my formers are usually tending to get themselves grouped together, team-forming certain specific squares more quickly than lone wolf formers would...and, those formers tend to be on the outskirts of my territory, meaning that they're right next to the places where my newest bases will be formed up (usually they have teamed up to rapidly build the sensor array for a future base and are now doing some pre-work in anticipation of a colony pod's arrival).

At this point, when the colony pod gets to the new base site, it's time to shift gears a bit. By this point, I'm undoubtedly running Planned/Wealth, and have a fair amount of income for this point in the game, and probably have saved up a bit of cash....at this point, there's a subtle change in the order of things. No longer do my formers need to work on generating a 2 Nutrient square for new bases, because I've got the means to rush the Rec. Tanks at newly formed bases, which gives me the exact same effect as having a 2-nutrient square being worked (and the size cap for the base is still three). Therefore, my new build order is:
Rec. Tanks
Scout
Former
(and probably no pods, as I'm likely running out of room on the continent).

In fact, for me, the time to tear down any farms is as soon as the base in question moves from pod building and has its Recycling Tanks constructed....the farm is no longer a necessity, because it's almost always more efficient from a time standpoint to have bases grow beyond size three via kelp farms or nutrient bonus resources....at least pre-tree-farm. So, at that point in the game, my formers are free to stop messing with farms entirely, and can devote themselves to three tasks: Forests, Roads, and Sensors.

Now, as to those other implications: In SP, it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that if you want it, you've got the HGP, which means your bases at size three WILL NOT RIOT, thanks to the SP (I mean, you'd have to have something like 25 bases before you'd see drones....and at this point in the game, I doubt that'll happen), and, for bases that have access to kelp farms and nutrient bonuses (which will therefore eventually grow to size four and beyond), snagging the VW will ensure that THEY don't riot, at least til you begin nudging against the hab-complex limit (and, at or before that point, you'll be building psych-enhancing facilities (TF and RH), which will counter that as well).

Thus, if you want to pursue this basic approach for yourself, but want to avoid having to micro-manage the HELL out of your bases, speed is of the utmost importance in completing both the HGP and the VW, as it will pretty much guarantee you no drone problems (regardless of faction) up through size 6....when I'm playing this approach, I will usually speed build as many crawlers as I can specifically for those two projects (letting even the WP build suffer a lack of incoming crawlers in order to hasten those two).

But, I'm off to lunch, and I've prolly bored everybody to tears, so I'll hush now...lol
-=Vel=-

[LoD]

Ogie: So that was probably at the beggining of April wasn't it? In that case, I remember that only vaugely. SMAC came a month later into Poland.

I do, however, remember my first post. It was on a thread regarding the differences of artifact graphics in SMAC UK and US. I was wrong in my reply (of course ).

I don't remember my first thread. Probably some question about the strategy .

Ahh, the good old days. The Firaxis supervisory, the flame wars, bug lists, the "Lal's Birthday" thread and the "Confessions of a Cow Tipper" .

LoD

PS. To all those people that want to flame me because I'm posting off topic - this thread was started as a supplier crawler strategy. Then it evolved into "air defense". Now it's "thin expansion". 'Nuff said .

[Vi Vicdi]

Re-homing troops downgrades their morale to what it would have been had the unit been built in the target base.

[Enigma]

Well I played my 1st game as the UoP in a while on a map much like Vel descibes. The map is literally the most beneficial I have ever played on. 6+ rainy rolling squares in my HQ radius, 3 of them with rivers. 2 boreholes from the borehole cluster right next to HQ. Plus an energy bonus on a river square. Having 6 energy at my HQ from day one made my tech skyrocket. I was able to build every SP I wanted to in 60 years, except for the ME. My power bar is more than 4x higher than anyone else.. this is partially because my island is 3 times as big as anyone elses, partially because every single pod I popped gave me money or a resource bonus, and partially because I was UoP.

I had no problem getting a base to 18 production before I started my first SP- saving tons of time and gaining a permanant mineral increase. I have a single base with 5 SP's in it because I am kind of lazy this game. The crawler method of getting production really high really early worked like a charm.

Vel's other defense strategy, that is building prototypes and upgrading, worked quite well. 4 4e-3r-2 units are doing a great job defending my empire, and 3 of them are elite.

I am also posting here because the map is incredibly beneficial. I have never played on an easier map. There are more than 8 rivers in the vicinity of my first 15 bases. Pholus ridge in south west, borehole cluster in middle, and uranium flats in NE.
At least 1/3 of the squares are rainy. I could barely make a more beneficial map if I used the scenario editor.

It is only year 85 and I already have tree farms in 1/2 my bases. My HQ is raking in 50 energy without a single crawler focusing on energy. The UoP on this map is frighteningly easy.

*sigh* the UoP is pure evil...
[This message has been edited by Enigma (edited April 01, 2000).]