Supply Crawler?

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Vel,

Thanks for the response. One other reason (at least for me)that difficulties arise is the determination when to develop extensive military. If my mind set is builderesque and using thin expansion then moving onto infrastructure I can be figuratively caught with pants down in the event of premature monomemtum rush. Since the example above deals primarily with MMI/Fusion good weapon tech though I would assume though that time would be available to build that all important Military. Key here is to decide when to move from building butter to guns. The wrong decision can kill. Since I don't play multiplayer I can only assume this decision point is usually made earlier then in Single Player.



[This message has been edited by Ogie Oglethorpe (edited March 30, 2000).]

[Velociryx]

Hey YT! And that depends on the landmass I start out on, mostly....my goal is to fill it entirely during my first expansion phase....my usual settings are: Huge planet, 50-70% water (gives me a pretty solid chance of being on a decent sized landmass and having it all to myself), lots of erosion (cos I hate having to "see around" all those damned hills), and lots of rainfall. This is ideal for my style of play, because it virtually guarantees that most bases will already have a square that produces 2 nutrients, which frees me up to immediately plant a tree and begin heading toward the new base sites to plant those sensors (giving me a non-snipable, additional 25% defensive bonus). Also, with lots of erosion, there seems to be lots of flat squares, which makes roadbuilding a snap too. All that, coupled with the geometric growth in the early game and the practical inevitability of getting a pretty good spread of nutrient resource bonus squares, and it's not unreasonable to get in the neighborhood of a dozen (or more) bases up and running somewhere in the mid 50's to early 60's.
-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

Oh....forgot something: In the guide, I mention various expansion paradigms that could be used, and they represent styles of play I have actually used in the past. Now though, I firmly believe that Thin is the ONLY way that makes sense....the quicker you get those bases up and running, the stronger your position. Delaying your drive to critical mass (Manifest Destiny) to avoid the odd drone problem or out of a perceived need to play it safe will only hobble your growth. It's true that you run the risk of early game exposure to marauding worms, and if someone finds your crappy little bases in the first fifty turns or so, you're toast if you don't IMMEDIATELY shift gears, but barring those two possibilities, once the basic system is in place and those economies of scale begin to kick in, your total outputs will be FAR greater than those of your opponents, and that's the only consideration that truly matters.

One thing that Momentum players are loathe to admit to is the fact that building endless hordes of military units DOES come with a pricetag...in the form of support costs. True, they're geared to be able to have more "free units" but invariably they'll exceed that limit, and have to start paying a mineral per unit....and, by their own admission of not spending time on infrastructural development, that will begin to hamper their productive capability.

On the other hand, a Buider/Hybrid player won't generally start to crank out a severe military til the advent of clean reactors, keeping overall support costs relatively lower (and then at zero with a mass-upgrade to clean units), meaning that 100% of your empire's mineral outputs can go toward creating your war machine, which will enable you to rapidly close the gap between you and your more warlike opponent, AND it will make replacing losses relatively easier for you.

Remember, Momentum style is kinda a one-trick pony....hit your opponent unprepared. Do that, and you win....but if you can't, or don't find your opponent til he's set up properly, then his infrastructure WILL beat yours if he has even the tiniest amount of killer instinct (and, in case you're curious, a AAA Photon garrison in a base built on a sensor array touting an Aerospace complex and a tachyon field can take on Fusion choppers (standard 2:1 ratio) and not even blink).

-=Vel=-
[This message has been edited by Velociryx (edited March 30, 2000).]

[kaz]

Hey Vel,

Do you ever MP on Standard Maps?
And if so, how do your tactics change?

[YT]

Vel: it sounds like you play exactly the same way I do (except I use weak errosion), with one big difference. You expand like mad. I usually take 120 years or so to get out those ten-twelve bases, because I start in on infratructure earlier, space my bases more, and exclusively use formers in their base radii. This does mean that a random mind worm or other player won't take me out, but I can see in MP it would be very, very effective to use your method.

I like your analysis of a hybrid, but it seems to me that the line between a hybrid and a builder is narrow, whereas the line between a momentum and hybrid is quite far. I would say a hybrid player is a builder at heart that has finally quit building, and gone to units.

[Velociryx]

Hiya Kaz! As to MP on a Standard Map: Nothing at all changes in the expansion phase....but where infrastructural development is concerned, I will generally only allocate bases in groups of 2-3 at a time to build a given facility, and I DO find that I have to devote more time to building additional garrisons (will usually alternate facility-garrison-facility-garrison, generally using the "three per base" rule, and migrating them from the center to the border). One BIG change in the order of things though, is that Perim. Defenses (pre-airpower) are VERY high on the list for my border bases....generally built right after the CC's (for that defensive bonus). That, combined with Plasma-Armoured defenders, a sprinkling of Arty here and about, and an active (patrolling) defense can render your bases practically immune to takeover.

YT: I definately see the attraction of the slower development, and it makes each base a marvel, but you work against yourself by taking that approach for two reasons: First, each time a base grows by a factor of one, it takes a correspondingly longer amount of time to grow again. By keeping your bases fluctuating between size classes 1 and 2, you dramatically speed up the expansion process of your empire....it's true that it's annoying as HELL to lose a base once in a while to an odd worm or two, but in practice, that only happens to me about one game in eight....and the benefits of having all those production centers up and running so fast....well worth that small risk.... Give it a go and let me know how it works for you!

PS Forgot this part! LOL....it's been that kinda day....the second way you work against yourself is this: Let's say you build a tanks and then a commons, and then crank out a pod....pop drops by one, eliminating any drone problem you might have had, and thus, eliminating the need for the commons at that point in the game. Assume it takes 14 turns for the base to grow to the point where the commons becomes a necessity again....that's 14 credits you just spent on maintenance that you didn't have to. Multiplied out by the number of bases you do that in, and....you get it....

-=Vel=-
[This message has been edited by Velociryx (edited March 30, 2000).]

[Psharkjf]

Yes supply crawlers are the bomb. Learn to use them. Use them well. On all my maps, I have at least one base out of ten contantly churning them out. And these aren't the bland land ones, no. The AIR supply ships. Those are much more efficient and have a much longer range. But, a question. I know crawlers can completely disband themselves for full mineral value in Secret Projects and prototypes, but do they do the same for facilities?
And I've played all my games on Citizen and Specialist, and prototypes never seem to happen at all. Is that just because of the difficulty level or is prototyping almost nonexistent in the game?
[This message has been edited by Psharkjf (edited March 30, 2000).]

[WhiteElephants]

Either it's the difficulty or you are playing as the Spartans. You should have to prototype every single new weapons platform(ie, rover, hovertank, copter, foil, etc.), armor, and weapon. If you already prototyped an impact rover(4-1-2) you won't have to prototype a impact infantry(4-1-1) which applies to any new or old weapons platform. Meaning you won't have to prototype each weapons platform every time a new armor or weapon is available only the weapon or armor. I hope this made sense.

[Scott Johnson]

Harkening back to my way earlier post on Dynamic Defense, let me repeat that forewarned is forearmed. Construct and operate a national (factional?) Early Warning System of patrolling radar planes, strategically placed sensors, radar cruisers, etc. I realize that some folks just don't want to deal with the hassle of doing this, but it is a valid measure to protect yourself from this stuff. If he's sending his X-chopper at you from a long distance, your EWS should pick up the intruder so you can zap him before he zaps you. Meanwhile, you can profit from this system by having your sea forces trawl for IoD, your planes return to base each turn, therefore being ready to scramble and intercept, and so on. A smart player has his units do double or triple duties--get the most bang for the buck.

[Psharkjf]

I think it's the difficulty, because I get new Chaos guns early but when I complete one, it doesn't say the first is a prototype. On my readout it always says "Prototype Complete".

[Velociryx]

Hey Ogie!

Thoughts on not getting caught with your pants down:

The biggest "builder killer" is to be caught in a situation where an attack begins and you have not been keeping your prototyping current. If you're following a pretty standard Builder paradigm, you've got scads of money, so with even a one-turn warning, you can easily convert a LOT of your trance-scout garrisons into something truly useful....IF you've been prototyping all along the way.

What follows is a pretty typical example of my current game:

Assumptions: Bases spaced three apart, across the board.
Preliminary goals: Cent. Ec.//Planetary Networks (Planned)//Ind. Auto (Crawlers & Wealth)//HGP (for the switch to market)

Starting two bases: Base Build, Former, Scout, Former, Colony Pods

All bases beyond the first two will skip the second former.

Terraforming off the cuff: First goal: create a terrain square that provides 2 nutrients if one is not already in the radius. Second goal: Plant a tree. Third goal, move out to build a sensor array wherever I want my next base to go.

When the second former is created, his job is to begin work on a road network to the new base sites, and terraform around the new sites in advance of the pod's arrival, then make haste to the NEXT base site to build a sensor array and pre-terraform....repeat until the continent is filled to capacity, with bases three apart.

A few turns before I get Industrial Automation, I take stock of my bases, and plan to slow down my expansion a notch. Bases that are far from the frontier will stop making colony pods in preference for supply crawlers (three per base), rushing anytime money permits (My Rush-Build philosophy is as follows: New bases get their formers rushed, every time, and if I've got the money, they get their trance-scout rushed too, cos that's pretty cheap, and saves at least one, but usually 2-3 turns). Then, money permitting, rush those supply crawlers, cos the quicker each base has three, the quicker I can start churning out infrastructure.

I select one base, targeting it for rapid early development (Tanks, Commons, and 3 Crawlers)rushing that as soon as I can arrange the cash...then, that base starts working on the HGP, with a mind toward switching from Planned to FM the moment it's finished. The leap in cash and research is usually enough to guarantee that I'll keep the tech lead, and the control from getting the HGP (which, remember, affects ALL my bases, mitigating the drone problem I created with my brisk expansion) and setting me up in a position to completely avoid drone problems during the pre-boom phase of the game, so I won't lose a single turn to riotous citizens....very efficient.

Having done that, I take stock of the position of my bases, relative to each other. As more and more bases fall off of the expansion train (too far away to efficiently participate), they too begin developing basic infrastructure, followed by three crawlers.

By this time, it's about 2150-ish (or perhaps the EARLY 2160's, depending on map settings and such), and the continent is beginning to get pretty full, enabling me to shift from expansionistic mode to full-bore builder mode. First item on the blocks are whatever SP's I'm interested in, and as bases reach their "state of readiness" (defined for my game by having the following: Tanks, Commons, and three (3) crawlers out harvesting minerals, they begin to work on those choice SP's, which the bases near them (three spaces distant) continue to churn out crawlers. Generally, the SP's can be completed in five turns in this way, faster with rushing....up to six if you take your time at it, or are working on one of the early game expensives (Virtual World), but the point of it is, you lose almost no time, and the structure of your empire lends itself to the rapid completion of the SP's you decide you want.

The Pause
Having accomplished all that, and before I complete the Empire's infrastructure, I will take a close look at my various bases and select 3-4 of them to begin doing prototyping work, and pair them up with a nearby base, which will crank out an additional crawler (effectively giving me my prototypes in a single turn). Those prototypes are all built on rover chassis (by this point, that gives me a Recon Rover, Synthmetal Rover, Plasma Rover, and oftentimes and Impact Rover as well, with decent morale, despite my penchance for running Wealth)....and their morale will continue to improve as my CC's come online (and it's generally pretty good anyway, cos I enjoy the flexibility of getting the Command Nexus). I generally go ahead and upgrade them to "best/best" empath models, giving me a core mobile force with which to defend my holdings, and at that point(Plasma armour), I'll take a quick stock of my surroundings, and any bases that appear to be in vulnerable (perimeter) positions will get an armour upgrade, and about 1/3 of those will get a "best/best" upgrade, giving me reasonably stout defenses and some attack capability in the event of a surprise.

Bases that are not participating in the prototyping project turn their attention to the following: Sea Formers, Transports, and Probe Foils, very quickly giving me a fleet of cheap explorers and opening up whole new vistas of terraforming options.

Usually this pause lasts no more than 4 turns, and then it's back to building. As of SMAX, being a Builder is a TON easier, cos you've probably already got free facilities coming out the wazoo....energy banks, holo theaters, command centers and (if you play Zak) net nodes are all things you just don't need to build....and you've already got the tanks and commons done, so thanks to some quick SP work, you're bases have pretty much developed themselves....at this point, my order of construction goes: CC, Tree Farm, Hab-Complex, and here's why:

As the last of the tree-farms are rushed, I switch from Market to Planned (having added Dem to the mix at some point earlier, as the last colony pod slid into position), running a 40/20/40 spread, usually for ten turns (and then switching back to market). In those ten turns (thanks to the continually spiking mineral outputs), it's a snap to finish the Hab-complex just in time, and follow that up with a Research Hospital (which will, under the current configuration) throw the base into a Golden Age almost every time.

Ten turns of that sees the bulk of my bases at size 14, with the stragglers generally at least size 10-11, and the incremental gains of continuing to run planned just aren't worth the time spent, so it's back to Market for techs in 3-4 and several hundred credits a turn.

By now, the terribly expensive Hybrid Forest can be constructed in (on average) 12 turns, which actually means about 4 (the point at which it becomes cheap enough to rush build them), and then the remainder of the game can be spent in pursuit of one of two things: Building a HORDE of clean units to sweep the map or building sea colony pods and such to continue your expansion.

Of course, to optomize for MP, I would not be building as many SP's, nor would I feel the meticulous need to put all the facilities everywhere (building up to Tree Farms and Hab-Complexes and contenting myself with that....further improving bases as the game situation permitted, rather than just mass-building).

Whew....okay....THAT was quite the little ramble...lol
-=Vel=-

[This message has been edited by Velociryx (edited March 30, 2000).]

[YT]

Christ Vi, that's scary. Remind me not to MP with you.

How many bases would you say you get out in the first 50-60 turns? And are you looking at a standard map size? I imagine that having the slow tech of a larger map would either mean insane expansion while waiting for tech, or enhanced basic infrastructure.

------------------
Yours Truly

[LoD]

Ogie: Crap! Dumb me! Of course I didn't take that into account !

Oh, and don't worry, I didn't take your post seriously .

CEO Bernard? Was that after Trippin' Daily's ban from OWO? I'm asking this beacuse I remember him posting about FM, and the division of the entire Builder community to fans and enemies of that SE choice which followed, but I don't recall if it was on ACOL or OWO.


Psharkjf: In Citizen or Specialist, you do not have to build prototypes. That's the way those skill levels are designed.

LoD

[LoD]

OTOH, Ogie, the entire "on alert" defense option may not be such waste. Keep in mind that the defender has Air Superiority, and the attacker has only Nerve Gas. If both planes are equal weapon and reactor level, the defender wins.

And, are you sure the Nerve Gas option activates while defendending in air combat?


LoD

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Hey LoD,

I think the nerve gas will go off. I know for sure Soporific will so am pretty sure nerve will as well in fact I'm almost positive I've done so (but you know how faulty memory is for old men like me, so I won't say for sure).

CEO Bernard - Began posting theorums on successful use of Morgan at OWO on or about the same time Yin26 was just starting his crusading against Firaxis and customer service circa 1 month after SMAC release. Trippin' if memory serves was banned probably 4 months later. They had some great (or not so great depending on your POV) flame wars over there.

(Again memory is suspect.

Ogie in his rocking chair.....I remember back when SMAC first came out. We had to walk 20 miles through blinding blizzards of snows 6 feet deep all uphill just so we could play one turn..... )