Supply Crawler?

[EternalSpark]

This has prolly been said before, but supply stuff is good for transferring nutrients from your size 16 base that is producing enough nutriets to feed the Dopefish for ahwile to the base that needs to grow on the ocean.

[kaz]

Never remote mine resources unless you think that no one can find your crawler(for example, the poles are usually safe, or an isolated stetch of sea on a Huge map).

Any decent player(and the AI) will munch lone crawlers. Clean max armor AAA units can be used to "cover" a crawler, thus protecting it from anything but a determined air attack, but the required minerals for such a unit is usually not worth it.

Airbases and interceptors in the middle of a crawler field can stop those pesky choppers, but basically making ANY crawler field is asking for trouble. Usually I try mixing them in with bases to bring in rocky/road/mine, borehole, solar/high elevation and condensor/rainy/farm squares, or forests(minerals for pre-air/early game).

[Scott Johnson]

I'm with you, Kaz,

While I admit that in principle things like energy parks can produce bonanza results, in actual play it seems more practical to just do as you suggest and have crawlers dotted all over your empire. That way the same military infrastructure in place to keep your bases safe will be on hand to handle threats against your crawlers.

As far as the comment before goes, re: chopper massacres of sea foils, that *is* a legitimate concern. Even the AI will sometimes do that. It seems to be the accepted wisdom to really scale back on crawler use in multiplay, but vs. the AI keeping your sea foils close enough for your interceptors to scramble usually works well enough to make sea foils worth their weight in kelp.

[PrinceBimz]

>>>I'd trade a 40 mineral fusion chopper for half a dozen crawlers any day. Even at 90% damage, getting me 36 squares to fly to reach those crawlers, bagging half a dozen won't be too tough. If you're closer, and your warships aren't in port, I'd bag a few of them to boot.<<<

Not me because I want to transport those resources and grow my bases for great benefits! The fusion chopper can only fight and thats it but the supplies can grow bases. A half a dozen supply ships can really pack alot of resources into a base growing it like you would not believe.

You can also use a SAM ship, which I have done at times, near the area to help protect the supplies and you can counter attack those choppers. It don't have to be an expensive ship either, just a basic SAM ship with 3 or 4 attack and no armor will do it. The best is with a carrier or nearby coastal base with jets set on alert and they can intercept before the choppers can even attack.

[Scott Johnson]

Prince,

I think that MTG's point was that he would be willing to sacrifice his chopper if that meant his lone chopper could take out maybe half a dozen sea supply foils--in that case he wouldn't care if you had a SAM ship ready to retaliate. On the other hand, interceptors can scramble during the enemy's turn, so that seems to be a better option for countering MTG's strategy. On the other other hand, he'd probably say that a good player will send a whole wave of suicide choppers, overwhelming your air defense capabilities.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

It occurs to me that most people speak here towards use of AAA defense ships to prevent air incursions of you sea crawlers. Why are we forgetting the lowly Isle of Deep?

Let them come at me with gas. I fear you not with my trusty flotilla of worms acting as defense. The guaranteed 1 to 1 odds make any picks off attempts pretty costly for attackers (more so if you get the Neural Amp SP). By the by idea inspired by LOD's comments to MTG and how to defend base sites from maurading gas choppers as gas is never employed.

All the more reason to retry Lady Diedre as she can harvest nicely amounts of food from fungus and also allow that wounded Isle of Deep to heal completely thereby protecting that little foil harvestor.

[This message has been edited by Ogie Oglethorpe (edited March 28, 2000).]

[Sikander]

Ogie,

I like your idea about using IODs and worms to protect trawlers and crawlers. My only problem with it has to do with expense. Against air units, you would need one IOD per trawler, which is very expensive both in initial minerals, as well as support. I think there is a bug in the program which assigns captured worms to cities, which significantly limits their value (unless you find them in enemy territory).

In addition, native life forms (except for locusts) are usually more difficult to deploy, as they cannot be given drop pods or speeder chassis etc.

I think the only truly effective defense for a trawler / crawler park is to ruthlessly eliminate any enemy forces within range. This requires forward bases and constant patrolling.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Sikander,

True cost of IoD and worms can be prohibitive. Hopefully though your getting freebies by trawling in fungus. At some point though you'll end up with diminishing returns and will require manufacture of your own.

As for support of these little beasties, I was thinking of the Gaians and harvesting nuts from the fungus (albeit only 2 at first but more as tech allows) placing that IoD in the fungus patch ensures no support and healing capability.

Whole scale support for a massive global kelp harvesting/tidal harvesting campaign would be VERY problematic. But one could envision a local tidal harness/kelp farm or better yet fungal patch (being Gaian) just off your coast allowing you to bring your IoD's back to base in the event choppers want to attack your costal cities. (A nice mental excersize at least). With a fungal reef around your bases you would create a nice no wake zone wherein your air/sea forces could respond appropriately.

This potential counter to air strikes might actually make conventional missiles of some more use as native life always loses to missile hits.

PS. Actual credit for native life defense against air power employing nerve gas goes to Tau Ceti in Land Based SAM thread not LOD. (Sorry Tau )

But LOD has come up with some winners in the past (can't think of any off hand but .... Just kidding )



[This message has been edited by Ogie Oglethorpe (edited March 28, 2000).]

[Sikander]

Ogie,

I thought of a similar Gaian approach (fungus belt), but never implemented it. I never seem to work the fungus. By the time I can really make it pay, the game is already won, and my terraforming investment too large. It does seem like a good idea though, especially since native life forms get combat bonuses in fungus.

[Velociryx]

A lot of this has to do with starting position, but one way to create a safe haven for sea harvesting is to terraform up sufficient land to create your own inland sea, and terraform/harvest every square in it....the energy benefits border on the obscene (especially if the crawlers are assigned to the base that has any of the lab or econ doubling SP's in it, thereby ensuring that the crawlers pay for themselves VERY quickly), and post fusion, sea-crawlers are cheap to build anyway...works especially well if you begin fairly far north or south, and can simply link up with the poles, and after your masses of formers have finished the basic terraforming, they can construct the land-link VERY rapidly (aided now and again by those spiffy-but-overpriced Tectonic missiles if you get the urge to)

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Vel,

Not sure if you have read (or perhaps experienced first hand) some of the latest posts especially from Michael the Great regarding multiplayer games and his devastating use of Fusion Laser (at least)/Fusion reactor/Nerve Gas Choppers but he makes very compelling arguements on just how effective if not game imbalancing these terrors can be. By assigning these to suicide missions and keeping them aloft for 4 turns of range/destruction and then issuing a final self destruct command he has an effective range spanning vast distances and unprecedented carnage.

Inland sea is great from the standpoint of marauding sea vessels but falls short with the Kamikazee choppers. Any thoughts on prevention other than the obvious offense is the best defense?

[PrinceBimz]

True, but I can produce cheap interceptors in larger numbers then what the choppers can be built for. The choppers just can't go around and destroy at will, not when you have interceptors and especially if they are set on alert for air defense.

[LoD]

PrinceBimz: Damn it, I was just about to say that .

This idea is cheaper than the Mind Worm aproach (nothing personal, Tau Ceti ), and you spend less minerals than the attacker.

And 13x-1-12*2 Chopper/NJ costs 60 mins to build by default. Your "defence" chopper does not require neither the high lever weapon, nor a fusion reactor (I'm not counting the Nerve Gas Pods ability because it has the same cost as Air Superirority). Now, a <4>-1-10*1 Chopper/NJ costs only 30 mins, and that means you can build two of those for every unit the attacker sends into your territory. And, unlike your opponent, you actually get to recover your air fleet after the attack.


Ogie:

quote: [...]can't think of any off hand [...]

If you were not posting at OWO since April 1999, I can understand that.



LoD

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

LoD and the player otherwise (formerly?) known as PrinceBimz

Maybe I'm confused here. An interceptor on alert scrambling to provide air defense to a ground/sea unit will defend with weapon value say 4 for the cheapies you've mentioned. The Shard X chopper however should be using its attack value since it is the attacker not its armor value further it should be able to employ Nerve gas net effect is a 19.5 attack value against a lowly 4 defending unit before moral effects. Thats tatamount to simply throwing away your minerals for the interceptor.

Now if the case were reversed and your interceptor strikes the Shard X chopper after it has completed its moves then the Shard X defends with armor of 1 and is easy pickings for your cheap interceptors. However by that time at least one set of moves/carnage has been done. Additonally if local air power is present and recognized I'm sure a player of MTG's caliber would surely self destruct sooner and take out some more crawlers rather than let the interceptors respond.


LoD, By the by as I hope you recognized, I was just busting your chops . I recognize you from the old OWO forums. Was a long time lurker there and picked up many useful hints. Remember CEO Bernard? What ever happened to him? He was the first one to really expound on the virtues of Morgan and FM. I started to get bored once the forum became nothing but flame wars. Finally came here (and actually began posting) as the tone/atmosphere suits my tastes best.


[This message has been edited by Ogie Oglethorpe (edited March 30, 2000).]

[Velociryx]

Defending the inland sea from air attacks:

If you develop it as per my last post, then it is entirely ringed with bases, and those bases (presumedly) have an array of defenses (we're talking about mid game here, at least, given the time it would take to finish basic terraforming of the starting landmass, complete said land bridge to the poles, and begin to terraform/harvest from the newly formed inland sea). Having said that, and given an active stance on defense (regular patrols, not to mention your own units that you're sending out toward your opponent's territory to cause problems), you will nearly always discover the marauding unit before he even reaches your shores, rendering the attack essentially a waste of time and minerals.

Any and all Builders out there, take heart and listen closely to the postings of the Momentum folk and follow their example....just remember two things:

First, a better infrastructure equals greater efficiency and economies of scale, meaning that, when you're ready to put together a war machine, you can do it more effectively and much more quickly than an empire with a less well developed infrastructure, and second, anything that works for a Momentum player will work even better for you (again, thanks to greater overall efficiencies).
-=Vel=-

PS: The secret (and most common reason Builders die) is to get good enough and fast enough to develop your infrastructure quickly....then spend the rest of the game building a war machine that the Momentum folk only WISH they could put together.
[This message has been edited by Velociryx (edited March 30, 2000).]