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Politics: What will rule Chiron?

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  • #46
    I think frontier politics will win out in the end.

    Just think about it. PK vs Hive vs Believe vs... everybody else? C'mon, that's not even trying!

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    • #47
      Well, one thing is for sure: handling the delicate balance of the ecosystems requires careful deliberation instead of blind aggression and fanaticism, so there goes the Believers. As far as democracies go, they are great once they get going, but getting a democracy off the ground is historically shaky business, and having an unforgiving planet and a couple of ultra-agressive psyco-maniacs to deal with next door would make it well nigh impossible to get a democracy going, so I'm afraid the only hope we have is with Yang.

      But hey, on the bright side, we could always find entertainment in a Hive society at the local Holo-theatre. I hear The Hive 16 Holo-theatre is having a 7:00 showing of "Raiders of the Lost Monolith". Although I myself prefer the sequel, "Zakharov Jones and the Punishment Sphere of Doom".
      Civ IV is digital crack. If you are a college student in the middle of the semester, don't touch it with a 10-foot pole. I'm serious.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Jamski
        I beleive you are thinking of anarchocommunism
        I'm thinking of Marx.

        EDIT: Are you thinking of anarchosyndicalism (dominance of society by labour movements/"property is theft")?
        Last edited by Trithemius; March 31, 2004, 23:56.
        Trithemius
        ["Power performs the Miracle." - Johannes Trithemius

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Jamski
          You said that.
          -Jam
          When did you get allowed to start picking on people for spam?
          Trithemius
          ["Power performs the Miracle." - Johannes Trithemius

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          • #50
            You know, I'm finding that there are more and more trolls in the AC-General forum in the past couple of weeks now.
            Despot-(1a) : a ruler with absolute power and authority (1b) : a person exercising power tyrannically
            Beyond Alpha Centauri-Witness the glory of Sheng-ji Yang
            *****Citizen of the Hive****
            "...but what sane person would move from Hawaii to Indiana?" -Dis

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Jamski
              Evil and Freedom are just "nonsense words" that have no place in a logical debate, because everyone has a different idea of the values contained in the strings "Evil" or "Freedom"
              Not nonsense, per se, but just so loaded as to be irrelevant in most comparisons. "Evil" for an arch-Statist is "Good" for a radical Marxist Socialist.

              If people are not to preface their value judgements with a break-down of what their value system is then we are not going to get anywhere.

              Not that we'll get anywhere anyway...
              Trithemius
              ["Power performs the Miracle." - Johannes Trithemius

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Commy
                Planned economies are based on communism. You can do a police state too, or a democracy, but planned is communism. Hitler did do a planned economy and a police state, that is correct. His government, however, was a fascism. He promised his people of a perfect society, modernized away from religion, to return to the fomer "glory" of Germany. Fascism is a socialist state that uses hopes of a bright future and strict police to enforce its will. Yang is not a communist, he is a fascist. He has a planned economy (like communism, OR part of fascism) and uses police forces to uphold his will of bringing Utopia. And, alas, we therefore can conclude that undoubtly that arguement here is:
                That's errant nonsense. Under Marxist Communism there is no centre to do the planning. Means of Production are the property of the individual workers who work with them. It defies the very concept of centralised planning (and probably is a really stupid way of organising an economy... but hey, that is what Marx said...
                Trithemius
                ["Power performs the Miracle." - Johannes Trithemius

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by livid imp
                  Look guys I can play the amoral philosopher too.
                  Amoral philosopher? I'm a moral philosopher, and I think that Yang is too. I just think that his concept of "morality" is vastly different from existing concepts. Jesus puts forward a system of morality; so does Machiavelli.

                  Do I think that Yang is "right", who bloody knows, I have never read any philosophy by anyone called Sheng-ji Yang.

                  I have to stop having these kinds of conversations on my spare time...
                  Trithemius
                  ["Power performs the Miracle." - Johannes Trithemius

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Frankychan
                    You know, I'm finding that there are more and more trolls in the AC-General forum in the past couple of weeks now.
                    "Trolls" are another one of those value-judgements I was talking about... one man's troll is another man's treasure...
                    Trithemius
                    ["Power performs the Miracle." - Johannes Trithemius

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                    • #55
                      "Who defines evil? Westerners? Americans? God? Who defines basic freedoms? Westerners? Americans? God?Evil and Freedom are just "nonsense words" that have no place in a logical debate, because everyone has a different idea of the values contained in the strings "Evil" or "Freedom"

                      -Jam



                      Words are used to represent ideas, to an extent every word has a differnt meaning for every individual. The words Evil, Freedom ect ect ofcorse differ from culture to culture. The only universal is that "Evil" is a label for actions that are considered unacceptable to the group. A lot of misilanious things tend to fall under their but a few basics tend to under it such as excessive use of power, hoarding of resorces, physical harm to large numbers of individuals. Even a troop of Chimpanzzes will react with colective punishment towards an individual who comits such acts. Thus its rather obvious that our aversion to the core acts of "Evil" are an evolutionary trait designed to foster group cohesion by simple preservation of the groups members and their well being.

                      Ofcorse their is much more to it then that as society always add layers to the foudation nature provides. Religions interprit various acts or inactions to be Evil and add them to the list. Most notibly things that would be considered "Evil" when done to your own group members is not considered Evil when done to a differnt group, especialy when your group is in competition with them. These kinds of double standards are everyware and further demonstrate my point.

                      Our definition of Evil is constantly Evolving too and has been for all of recorded history. The typical senario involves some visionary individual comeing up with some new idea and telling everyone else about it. Usualy the idea involves stoping some activity that has been going on and redefining said activity as "Evil". Their is usualy some segment of the population that whole hartedly agrees because the activity was detrimental to them, another group oposes it because the activity is good for them (usaly their the leadership as only leaders are alowed to conduct activities that benefit themselves at the expense of other group members). A long and difficult philisophical strugle commences and the person who originated the idea is usualy killed (under the justification that the person was comitting Evil by bringing about unrest in society, and leaders are expected to punish "Evil" actions after all) Finaly some kind of resolution is reached and all members are forced to adhear to the new protocal which will either be an inclusion of the new idea into the fabric of their Morality or conversly if the idea fails the belife in or spreading of the idea will be considered an Evil act. That should sum up just about every ideological struggle since the dawn of man kind.
                      Companions the creator seeks, not corpses, not herds and believers. Fellow creators, the creator seeks - those who write new values on new tablets. Companions the creator seeks, and fellow harvesters; for everything about him is ripe for the harvest. - Thus spoke Zarathustra, Fredrick Nietzsche

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Voltaire

                        And you're avoiding my questions.
                        Let me start off by saying I do admire your (and Jam's) demands for proof. Rationalization and discussion are my religion and it is always nice to see others that are practicing members.

                        I understand the morality is subjective argument.
                        I'm not avoiding your questions out of lack of a response. I have had this discussion a hundred times (back in the Usenet days) and shame on me for allowing myself to get dragged back into it Usenet used to consume even more of my life than this game does.
                        Ten years ago I was on your side of the fence making the same arguments. I know I can not persuade you, so I am not going to bother. You will just have to figure it out on your own. Sometimes the world is more simple than the philosophy books let on.

                        Go ahead and put in the last word if you must....
                        "They’re lazy troublemakers, and they all carry weapons." - SMAC Manual, Page 59 Regarding Drones
                        "Without music, life would be a mistake." -- Friedrich Nietzsche
                        "If fascism came to America it would be on a program of Americanism." -- Huey Long
                        "Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to greater danger. It works the same in any country." -- Hermann Goering

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
                          Democracy is the evil, the tyranny of the stupid majority.
                          An enlightened ruler wlil always provide a for a better state than the masses will because the masses are inheritly uneducated.

                          Plato
                          I like the idea of democracy better. The problem is, as Plato said, leaders take advantage of the people. As I said before, there is nothing wrong with any type of government. The problem is the person leading it. Yang has some good and some bad ideals. He is a very good leader, and probably could lead a society better than any other faction leader. But as a person, I just don't like him. It's not the police state that bothers me, it's Yang.

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                          • #58
                            I think I'm going to have to end with Jamski, at least, I think it was he who said it (please correct me if I'm wrong). Really, the best government for a society is Anarchy or Frontier. Then people can do whatever they want. They don't have to listen to some leader trying to brain wash them. They still have their freedom, and can make their own decisions based on their integrity. Yeah, maybe criminals will take advantage of the lack of law enforcement, but, hey, look at Africa. A lot of small towns in poorer parts of Africa have never even seen their leader. They have no real government. They listen to elders, more experienced people, make their decision after hearing ALL the information, and things proceed nicely. They may not have TVs and X-box. They may not have anything but clothes. They may starve every day. But it is they who are happy. Not America with its democracy. Not China with its communism. Not Hitler leading a fascism. It is some small backwater town that can lead the world into creating a more perfect society.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Commy


                              I like the idea of democracy better. The problem is, as Plato said, leaders take advantage of the people. As I said before, there is nothing wrong with any type of government. The problem is the person leading it. Yang has some good and some bad ideals. He is a very good leader, and probably could lead a society better than any other faction leader. But as a person, I just don't like him. It's not the police state that bothers me, it's Yang.
                              So? If, by your own admission, he could lead society "better than any other faction leader" then thats what we need. We don't need someone whos nice and who you'd invite over for a cup tea.

                              It is some small backwater town that can lead the world into creating a more perfect society.
                              Anarchy is just like direct democracy: It cannot be applied on a larger scale.
                              If the governments of the world collapsed there would be *incredible* chaos as military forces fight for control, criminals loot places unchecked, people panic, etc etc ETC....
                              Eventis is the only refuge of the spammer. Join us now.
                              Long live teh paranoia smiley!

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