In real life, what faction would you be part of? (Includes all 14 factions)

[Nubclear]

I have nothing against communism, but look at every communist country in the world. EVERYONE (except the leader, somehow) is poor.

But the "communist" nations youve been taught about weren't communist - They were dictatorships.
Thus making your point deflate.

But come to America with a free market, and very few people are even close to poor.

I live in America, and I can tell you there are a ton of people who are poor America isn't the rosy paradise that American propaganda makes it out to be.

The people run Europe,

Interestingly, Europe is quite socialist.

America stills stands as the leading economy, only superpower, and largest industry in the world.

And China is quickly rising to overtake America. Soon America will not be the leader in all things.

Russia couldn't keep people under communism, and lost its control.

Perhaps because the people wanted to be free (which would be essential for communism)?

he only country still standing is China. And the only reason is because any one who disagrees is killed or thrown in jail for a couple (actually a lot) of years.

I'm sure the Chinese posters who post on Apolyton would disagree.

The only reason its economy has fallen is because it has 2 billion people all working crappy jobs.

Much less than 2 billion, and its economy is increasingly becoming much more modern.

China took the liberty to kill its own people.

Yes, and even communists around the world condemned that - Killing the people for wanting something is hardly communist.

But look at China and old USSR. Practically everyone, with the exception of the politicians, is way under the American and European living standard.

Perhaps in the old USSR, but thats perhaps partially because, I don't know, the nation just collapsed!!!!. It kind of destroys stability a little.

And remember that the Chinese middle class is larger than the entire population of the United States.

[Zeiter]

Hmmm, there are some valid points against a planned economy. Although I thought Japan's economic problems were also due to unwise decisions to prop up failing or obsolete industries.

And, of course people need incentive to work. It can't just be a free-lunch. What I'm saying is a broader distribution of wealth, where perhaps CEO's only make 20 times what their workers make, instead of, oh, about a 1000 times what their workers make. You've got to reward those who work hard better. One way to accomplish this would be a higher minimum wage. Corporate profits would decrease somewhat, but not more than the business could afford. I don't think you'd want to make businesses unprofitable. Another way to accomplish more equal distribution would be higher, but more progressive taxes. Sure, supply-side investment would lag, but giving the working class the purchasing power to have a good standard of living would give a boost to the economy. In fact, I'd say that the capital is better spent if it goes in on the demand side of the economic machine instead of the supply side, but I could be wrong.

If a planned economy didn't work out, I think I'd also like a green economy.

[Skanky Burns]

One way to accomplish this would be a higher minimum wage. Corporate profits would decrease somewhat, but not more than the business could afford.

But then hiring would decrease, available jobs would decrease.

[gwillybj]

The Spartan Federal Militia

Preferences: Power, Morale.
Aversion: Wealth.
Vigilant/Paranoid. Cautious/Sociopathic.
To exercise freely the God-given right to keep and bear arms.

Spartans + Fundamentalist + Planned + Power + Cybernetic.
Economy 0 = Standard Energy Rates.
Efficiency 0 = High Inefficiency.
Support +2 = Support Four Units Free at Each Base.
Morale +5 (+4) = +3 Morale!
Police -2 = Cannot Use Military Units as Police. No Nerve Stapling.
Growth +2 = +20% Growth Rate.
Planet +2 = Ecological Harmony. Increased Chance of Capturing Native Lifeforms.
Probe +2 = +2 Probe Team Morale. Doubles Cost of Enemy Probe Team Actions.
Industry -2 = Mineral Costs Increased by 20%.
Research 0 = Normal Research Rate.

Add in the four Secret Projects with Social Engineering effects (Ascetic Virtues + Cloning Vats + Living Refinery + Network Backbone), and the result is no negative totals:

Support +4 (+3) = Support Four Units or Up To Base Size Free!
Police +2 = Can Use Up To Three Military Units as Police.
Industry 0 = Normal Production Costs.

[Nubclear]

Yay! So they'll have more units to stall our Ubermegaultra Choppers.

[Trithemius]

Originally posted by Jamski
Bah, all these people fooled by the PK's pretense of democracy. You expect me to beleive a democratic faction would elect that dick Lal repeatedly for 200 years?

He seems like a nice guy to me.

[Trithemius]

Originally posted by Commy
Yang's idealogies, to create a society of perfectness by torturing citizens, is fascism.

Social engineering happens in all societies, it's happening in our societies right now. It explains why we believe the things we all believe and why we act in the ways that we do.

Democracies and "Enlightened" societies are just as susceptible to "buidling" their citizens, some would say that they are even more susceptible.

[Trithemius]

Originally posted by Zeiter
Hmmm, there are some valid points against a planned economy. Although I thought Japan's economic problems were also due to unwise decisions to prop up failing or obsolete industries.

Do people here consider the German economy of the late 19th century (under Bismarck) to have been "planned"?

[Frankychan]

I haven't seen a discussion this good and filled with so many opposing and valid points in a very long time.

[GeoModder]

Originally posted by Santiago_Clause
It's good if you can get it, but unless you're an oil-rich country like Sweden good luck.

The rest of us have to pay our own way. Italy tried the "free lunch model" and has taxed and spent itself to ruin. France and Spain are about to follow suit. Maybe if they had Sweden's per capita share of oil they could pull it off. They don't.

Honestly neither does America; our budget has a limit defined by the per capita productivity of our citizens, not vast fields of oil or some other magical golden goose.

A few corrections here, AFAIK Sweden has no oil deposits, but the USA has quite some. Never heard about the Midwest fields, the Caraibean and the Californian fields?

[Santiago_Claus]

Almost all nations with emerging markets transition through a "planned" economy, more or less. The English and Dutch had their "mercantilism", the French monarchy ordered industrialization in order to remain competitive with England, and the Germans industrialized in the name of national pride.

The U.S., to my knowledge, would be the only exception to the rule, the only nation that didn't intentionally industrialize.

Except for the Confederates, who practiced slavery, Americans so loathed national authority of any kind that capitalism sort of existed by default, and industrialism came about by the investment of wealthy corporations and individuals. (It should be noted that the South was and remains economically behind the North, and that both are dwarfed by the economic might of the West, California in particular. The "frontier mentality" would seem to translate into big bucks after a couple of generations ...)

Up until around 1910 or so there was a constitutional ban on direct taxation of citizens by the Federal government. This by itself largely precluded any sort of planned economy.

Today it is common for the U.S. government to subsidize industry indirectly through research, both via grants to universities and through so-called "dual-use technologies" developed by defense contractors as part of their day jobs. (Velcro courtesy of NASA, etc.)

There are also a few totally useless "pork barrel" subsidies backed by powerful political lobbies which refuse to die, such as farm subsidies and the National Endowment for the Arts, but as a percentage of the overall budget that sort of graft doesn't amount to much. Americans hate graft as much as they love it, so that when the pork reaches "critical mass" there's a backlash against it and it gets cut (ref. the Newt Gingrich / Bill Clinton reforms of 1994.)

As for raising the minimum wage, I'm fairly convinced that in the absence of a "gold standard" a minimum wage ultimately pegs the value of the currency to unskilled labor, which is a fancy way of saying "minimum wages should cause inflation", except they don't because the response to the temporary imbalance of labor cost makes it permanent. If the minimum wage worldwide were fixed to one American dollar per hour, it wouldn't set the value of an hour of unskilled labor -- it would set the value of a dollar. But it isn't, so it doesn't.

What's most interesting is that individuals acting out of self-interest prevent the mass devaluation of the currency in general when the minimum wage increases. Instead of simply passing increased costs through as higher prices, minimum wage increases cause increased productivity (more work with fewer people, perhaps through automation) or relocation to cheaper sources of labor, such as Mexico.

These actions, undertaken individually to "reduce cost", together act to preserve the value of the currency, to prevent inflation. When the business's currency was devalued, it perceived the devaluation as "increased cost" and responded by making cuts. In finding ways to get more value out of its currency, that business and others like it collectively prevented the currency from dropping in value. It's something of a paradox to me.

[Jac de Molay]

Originally posted by GSTEIN
I have noticed in various threads, including this one, the general acceptance of the pernicious myth that dictatorships are more efficient and can guard their people better than democracies. This has been disproved so many times that it is strange it still survives.

Yeah, on Earth,

We're not talking about Earth. We're talking about a planet that wants to wipe you off the face of its surface any chance it gets, and cares little about whose happy or not in the end.

That's why the Yanger is best. The ability to put up a strong military and supporting infrastructure quickly, and mobilize a large amount of force rapidly, ensures the best chance of survival in the long run.

One could argue democracies do the same, but they also consistently drag their feet in rising to the challenge. A hostile environment affords little time for that.

[Commy]

You know what, you're all wrong!!! The best government for Chiron is an anarchy. Why? Because then everyone will kill themselves and it won't matter what type of government Chiron is under, because the only thing to rule will be a bunch of mindworms trying to eat you!!!

The point of this post here:

Any discussions about politics should be discussed in the new thread I posted about politics of Chiron.

[Jamski]

Wowo! They made Commy a mod already

-Jam

[Voltaire]

Truly I’m surprised that more people did not vote for the University. To me it would be the ideal society; I could spend all my time in the glorious pursuit of knowledge free from the superfluous activities of everyday life.