Deirdre Vs Cha Dawn

[Fistleaf]

In a straight fight, with situations being the same, IMO Deirdre should have the upper hand over Cha Dawn although they are both inclined to native armies.
Mindworms being intrinsically more expensive than normal troops, the -1 Industry penalty for Cha Dawn really hurts a lot. Coupled with the fact that you can only capture about 6 or so "free" mindworms, Deirdre can field a much larger "green" army. The extra +1 Planet of Cha Dawn simply is not sufficient to even the odds.
Furthermore, Gaian advantages of +1 nutrient in fungus and +2 Efficiency are much more useful and practical than the Mindworm double police duty and free Brood Pits (comes too late to be useful) of Cha Dawn.
Possible Remedies:
Cha Dawn can't use Wealth SE to remedy the -1 Industry. How about Free Market, which Deirdre can't use ? However, free market is crippled for Cha Dawn, because of -1 Economy and adversion to Wealth SE. So monetary gain is limited. This also completely negates the +2 Planet advantage.
The remedy might be Planned SE, although Deirdre has the advantage of +2 Efficiency. The -1 growth of Deirdre hinders Pop Boom, so if Cha Dawn Pop Booms effectively, he might be able to match or overcome Deirdre's forces with his bigger bases and consequently production power.

[Fitz]

First of all, I disagree with two of your premises. Native units are LESS expensive than military units (offensive ones) and the +1 Planet means a significant difference.

My contention on the offensive militray units is based on the fact that in most games I play, a offensive military unit tends to take 2-3 times as long to build as a mindworm. BUT, if you use shells and upgrade, you could be right in time to build, but you still have to pay the upgrade cost.

As far as the planet rating goes, another +1 Bonus means you could potentially catch twice as many mindworms before you can't effectively catch more. That's twice the military, in the early game in all likelyhood. And twelve mindworms in early game is a hell of a lot scarier than six.

A minus one economy is no real effect. You can negate the penalty with a golden age in your home base. The REAL effect of a -1 Economy (especially with Aversion: Wealth) is to prevent easy access to the coveted +2 Economy for +1 Energy/Square. That means you need a GA AND Free Market SE. But that means industrial might must be your target, not monetary might.

The easy solution to industrial might is minerals. Beeline for industrial automation, start cranking out crawlers. Personally I would go for Green SE next, to get more mindworms. Then you can capture plenty more wild worms, and start crankin out an army a the same time.

And Cha Dawn may build slow and not be able to get LOTS of energy (he can still get a decent amount), but he is missing the two things that hurt Dee. He has no drone problems (better Police rating and double duty mindworms), and he has better military (no -1 morale).

I think Cha Dawn is much better for a military game, and consequently play him when I'm in the mood for conquering. Dee is more orientated to builder style of play.

[Qualicide]

when did dee get the -1 growth?

------------------
http://thangorodrim.angband.org/angband.html (alright meybe i didnt make it)

[Fistleaf]

Some counter-arguments:
If you build attacking units with little armour and no special ability, mindworms should be quite expensive relatively. (6-1-1, 13-1-1 etc.)
I don't think the extra +1 Planet bonus can allow the capture of so many mindworms. I have never caught so many (12) before while running Green. (excluding those which have since been killed)
The -1 Police of Deirdre has no real effect except preventing Nerve Staping, so this disadvantage is quite inconsequential. And isn't it a waste using an attacking unit(mindworm) to do police duty when a cheap 1-1-1 Police scout will do(leaving the option of upgrading during emergencies open)
Lastly, why bother with -1 Morale when you are using native units? Deirdre's normal units should mostly do defensive duty in cities with Children's Creche.
And Qualicide, you are right, I was mistaken about the -1 Growth thing, I got the impression that ecologists should not encourage overpopulation. (Turned out to be the concept for Green SE instead.)

[Fitz]

quote: Originally posted by Fistleaf on 09-22-2000 06:22 AM Some counter-arguments: If you build attacking units with little armour and no special ability, mindworms should be quite expensive relatively. (6-1-1, 13-1-1 etc.) I don't think the extra +1 Planet bonus can allow the capture of so many mindworms. I have never caught so many (12) before while running Green. (excluding those which have since been killed) The -1 Police of Deirdre has no real effect except preventing Nerve Staping, so this disadvantage is quite inconsequential. And isn't it a waste using an attacking unit(mindworm) to do police duty when a cheap 1-1-1 Police scout will do(leaving the option of upgrading during emergencies open) Lastly, why bother with -1 Morale when you are using native units? Deirdre's normal units should mostly do defensive duty in cities with Children's Creche. And Qualicide, you are right, I was mistaken about the -1 Growth thing, I got the impression that ecologists should not encourage overpopulation. (Turned out to be the concept for Green SE instead.)

I couldn't say about the relative cost of a attack only unit vs a mindworm. But I will say that you are garunteed certain odds with a mindoworm, and if you push you advantages (get the Dream Twister SP later on and pump up your planet rating) you may get better attacking odds than using an attack only unit. In addition, your defense will be much better (3-2 base) with a mindworm.
In bases, your defense with mindorms may also be much better, especially if you factor in the base bonus and a sensor, and the Neural Amplifier can make a mind worm defender increadible. Compare a 3-4 defense or better to 6-4.5 (missile vs plasma). That's after you've spent money to upgrade your shell. And if you have several mindworms garrisoning (and doing double duty) then you can counter attack with even better odds.

I'm pretty sure that a higher Planet rating allows for the capture of more mindworms. We even had mention of it in a prior thread here. I believe the general thought was that your odds of capturing mindowrms went down from a starting number based on how many worms you already had. In other words, it might start at 25 and decrease by 5% per mindowrm with a plus one (allowing for a max of five), but start at 50% and decrease by 5% per mindworm with a plus 2 (allowing for a max of ten). This fits in with my observations (increase your planet rating, and if you don't have many worms, you suddenly capture a bunch).

I've always assumed that a morale SE penalty affects native life forms as well.

Doesn't a -1 POLICE mean one police unit as opossed to 2? And that's an ever bigger difference with double police duty.

[WhiteElephants]

Fitz, the -1 police rating just prevents you from using nerve stapling, but a rating of 0 police only allows you to use one police anyhow.

I have seen Vel post about the formula for mind worms and according to him you lose 10% for each worm captured or built, but it never falls below 10%. That's all I've heard about it.

I have had games with Diedre when I'm running green and where I do capture at least a dozen worms when diligently hunting.

[Fistleaf]

Fitz, you are assuming you get the SPs Neural Amp and Dream twister. If you don't get them, mindworms won't be that good, considering that Psi combat damages both the attacker and defender almost all the time. If you use a normal unit 13 attack against a 1 armour, it is highly likely that the attacker won't be hurt at all. The low standard psi battle ratio of 3:2 on land can be greatly skewed with Trance and Empath abilities. A baseline psi defender on land always has the disadvantage whereas a normal Defence 4 unit can defend with 8+ Defence in a base with Perimeter Defense and Sensor.
Another thing: mindworms cannot be "Clean" units. The every-turn-mineral-cost is going to be more costly to Cha Dawn due to the -1 Industry.
Clarification: Morale only affects normal units. Life cycle only affects native units (Increased by Biology lab, Xenoempathy Dome, Centauri Preserves etc).

[Adam_Smith]

Great thread, and some very interesting comments.

Everyone knows how fond I am of playing Cha Dawn, but what people don't know is that I also like to play as Dee. The only thing they really have in common is a plus planet rating. Besides that they are like night and day. Sure Dee can use her planet rating to raise a native life army, but what if her opponent has trance (Doh'). -1 Morale hurts then, because she must use her regular units, or she is reduced to a builder. However, she is as good of a builder as any. 2 nutes in the fungus is an amazing advantage, and she starts with Centauri Ecology (so does Cha). That makes her pop boom before everyone else (save for Lal maybe).

I don't think anyone has metioned the free brood pits at everybase with the discovery of Centauri Gentetics. I always have a ton of bases by then and this is amazing. I start poping out Demon Boil Locusts of Chiron. Of course with Cha Dawn your regular military is decent also. If they have trance units you hit them with rovers or bombers with sporific gas pods maybe. You can cover with LoC if you have the Neural Amp. You can also do alot with LoC even if they use trance. you can attack formers, desroy enhancements, and kill supply crawlers. You can also attack military units after all the units with trance have been killed.

+2 planet is then much better that +1 planet, because that adds an additional +10% to attack with native units. There is a critical mass here, +5 planet. Cha gets this using green and holding the manifold nexus. This allows him to kill trance units with his native units unless they use 3 res armor.

A couple of other things. True, Cha must build neural amp, but that usually is not a problem, because he starts out so strong that he should build it by upgrading supply crawlers. The player should keep in mind that he/she must build this however. The other thing is economy, no matter what, Cha will never get commerce. Forget it, don't sign treaties (except with subs ). Just be aggressive the whole game.

[Provost Harrison]

Surely later on you could also combine that with cybernetic to gain a massive +70% (+7 planet). Overkill yes, but the other benefits from these two SE choices can be useful...

[Fistleaf]

Adam Smith, what do you mean by Cha Dawn "starts out so strong"? The -1 Industry severely hampers Cha Dawn in the beginning and there is little money to rush build stuff (colony pods, crawlers, facilities, SPs).
I know the free Brood Pits are very good, but the problem is how to survive till then. Probably, lost out on the Planetary Governorship and several SPs by the time the Brood Pits arrive.(assuming no hostile factions nearby)

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Fist,

I believe Adam means that Cha starts so strong in his ability to field an immediate mostly support free army from day 0. +2 planet means he can and should be capturing more worms than not immediately and by doing worm rush on nearby opposing factions should have a submissive or two rather quickly. Morevoer the worms never truly become obsolete. (granted less effective with time as opposing factions gain facilities/SE choices to increase morale as well as advent of empath and trance) By capitalizing on the submissives even his econ and industry penalty should be a hindrance but not insurmountable. (kind of like the spartans if given the chance to momentum play). Pop a few pods risk free with the worms and hopefully you'll have an AA or two and can either cash in for SP build or tech as needed.

IMHO tho' Cha is as much if not more so than any other faction at the mercy of game setup. Give him lots of fungus and lots of land, pods on, spoils on and he will be set up nicely to momentum play and cruise. OTOH play sparse fungus, lots of water, pods off, and spils off he can't effectively start his momemtum rush until D: Flex which could be a little ways off. All in all a completely different flavored game for the androgenous one.
Contrast those game conditions for Dee, as she is much more balanced, she will fare much better.

[This message has been edited by Ogie Oglethorpe (edited September 26, 2000).]

[Fitz]

quote: Originally posted by Fistleaf on 09-23-2000 05:33 AM Fitz, you are assuming you get the SPs Neural Amp and Dream twister. If you don't get them, mindworms won't be that good, considering that Psi combat damages both the attacker and defender almost all the time. If you use a normal unit 13 attack against a 1 armour, it is highly likely that the attacker won't be hurt at all. The low standard psi battle ratio of 3:2 on land can be greatly skewed with Trance and Empath abilities. A baseline psi defender on land always has the disadvantage whereas a normal Defence 4 unit can defend with 8+ Defence in a base with Perimeter Defense and Sensor.

Read what you just said about the defense agian. Now apply your 13 attack unit to that 8+ defense, not a 1 defense. Now imagine your opponent has Fusion and you don't. All of a sudden, your odds are .8 to 1 or worse. Meanwhile, your mindworm still has approx 3/2.25 (base defense) against the smae unit.

quote: Another thing: mindworms cannot be "Clean" units. The every-turn-mineral-cost is going to be more costly to Cha Dawn due to the -1 Industry.

Ah, but native units have a built in Clean ability. If they end their turn on a square with fungus in it, they do not pay for support the next round.

The big advantage of Mindworms is in a mixed force. So, toss in a few units (higher morale than Dee), and you have a nice force. I personally tend to use mindworms as scouts, slow attackers (since they usually get badly hurt attacking, and need a lot of time to heal), and a secondary defender, you don't have to play with them that way.

[WhiteElephants]

[quote]Originally posted by Fitz on 09-26-2000 01:47 PM
Ah, but native units have a built in Clean ability. If they end their turn on a square with fungus in it, they do not pay for support the next round.

Wow! I didn't know this. Can anyone confirm or deny Fitz's statement? I know that some worms you capture are independent which I think is based on where you capture them. If they are closer to your base when you capture one its support comes from that base. If an enemy's base is closer the worm becomes independent. Does this sound right to everyone?

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

WE,

Fitz is exactly correct. Natives be they worms, shooters, IOD, LOCs, etc. if in fungus are sans support regardless of independent or supported status. Hence the absolute need for natives to patrol fungus areas for purposes of recruitment, training/combat life cycle upgrades, and free/clean unit status.

This is one of the biggest reasons why Cha can be effective as in the early game he can field a support free army of worms with devastating effect (+2 planet). Momentum-style is a must for the pink girlie boy.

Og

Og

[Qualicide]

against differnt reacters natives cant be beat either, its easy to fight fission vs quantum with worms because they do so much damage

throw in a +4 planet(green as cha, or nexus/green as dee) or even cybernetic for another +2 and you have a big attack mod with dream twister.

psi weapons on hover tanks also can help to move across land quick(transports?)

IoD are invinsable with planet/SPs, there is no way to kill them

a way to gather worms is simply to take about 2 rovers, and a few worms to a streach of fungus and kick up as many as possible, i find rovers get them more then worms because you need atleast 1 movement point to get a worm, not 1/3 or 2/3 which worms usualy get because they move a few times

and yes natives in fungus are clean

------------------
http://thangorodrim.angband.org/angband.html (alright meybe i didnt make it)