Zsozso's attempt at fastest transcend on huge map

[ellie]

eep

Nice gameplay ;p

Last time i landed in the monsoon i did the ultimate crime and forested it!! (im a forest freak).

But ive no idea how you guys transcend so quickly 2320 is my fastest transcend on @transcend difficulty@ and a large map.

Ellie

[zsozso]

I'll do Ellie's ultimate crime and forest the jungle, too !
Boreholes only on rocky tiles. Those pop3 bases are not so weak with forest around. By 2155 I have a former for each base (took only about 2-3 turns in each base to make them). Even though the production of these cities is relatively low, they still produce 8-9 mins even without boreholes, those who will get borehole can make 14, others will get a crawler on a rocky/mine/road giving them 12-13 and that is enough. The point to consider: I do not need to build huge infrastructure in all of the cities. I only build 2 or maybe 3 science cities with lots of facitlities - those can be rushed. Others are "support-cities" making crawlers and formers. The power is in the numbers: if you have 40 small cities that each can produce a crawler in 2 turns, that makes 80 crawlers in 2 turns - you can't match that with 12-15 well built powerfull cities, what you'd have with a traditional builder strategy. Same goes for terraforming: I had no formers in 2151, but have 16 in 2155, can have 30+ in 2161 - and so many formers can terraform real fast. I usually dig boreholes in 2 turns (with 8 simple formers, cant' be bothered to put 16 on a single tile to get it in 1 turn). Iam all for the gang-forming technique, i.e. I move a whole bunch of formers together to sweep the terrain and terraform each tile in a single turn (except for boreholes, there I "waste" 2 turns). There is a first wave of formers to make the road, then the second wave makes the actual target (forest/mine/solar), they can all move in and terraform in the same turn thanks to the road.

[MariOne]

2 questions, mainly related to Citizen peculiar features.

On Citizen, you can costlessly switch your SE on turn one - provided you have some req tech for a different SE.

With Zak, you can pick PlaNets, which is ALSO on the way to IndAuto. Besides, its inefficiency won't hurt while you're small in the beginning - at least, the more bases the extra productivity (also growth induced) will allow you, could balance the odd lab which inefficiency would not allow you to squeeze with extreme SE unbalancing.

I see you got BEFORE to FM than Planned... I would have gone to other way round...
True, shorter nutrients or mineral rows are useless UNTIL you're about to grow 1 size or actually complete an item. Thus, you could keep in FM until Planned needed.
Problems are, that you'll hardly manage to synchronize every base, and you'd end with a "continuum" of growth/production staggered moments in one or the other random base. Also, you'd likely be continuously switching in and out of Golden Ages, never reaping their benefits.

Similar question for Demo:
as after the very first phase you could allow to build bases in "waves", you could freely use Demo as soon as you can, going back to Frontier every 3-4 turns when you're about to plop down the new tier...

Beeline is IndAuto, which will give you Planned/Wealth, and the FM otpion.
After that you go for the EG, which passes by CentEcology: do you take a detour for EthCalc, or do you manage to get it maybe from techtrades after you get the EG?

____
Intersting note:
I said I did a bland 7-Zaks attempt.
Concerning also JT's considerations on techs availabilty/withholding, I would say that to complicate all the unproved theories about techs offers, they're SLOT dependent.
I.E., the same faction loaded in a differnt game slot will be allowed a DIFFERENT research path, and I mean the whole game thru. Mongoose got to the extent of determining that the mere presence of OTHER "displaced" factions in the game will alter the techs offered to your own research, all the rest unchanged.

For what concerns us, this will mean that if you want to try the PlaNets way from turn 2101, you can only do it playing with the Zak in the 3rd, or the 6th slot.
This of course is valid for 7-Zaks games, didn't check it for other combinations.

Ah, BTW, I also found out that in all the recent SMAX games I setup mixing the factions (no Scenario, just normal setup options), even Zak's research began from 2105 and not from first turn!
Anyone else noticed something similar?

[MariOne]

Originally posted by zsozso
...
Iam all for the gang-forming technique, i.e. I move a whole bunch of formers together to sweep the terrain and terraform each tile in a single turn (except for boreholes, there I "waste" 2 turns). There is a first wave of formers to make the road, then the second wave makes the actual target (forest/mine/solar), they can all move in and terraform in the same turn thanks to the road.

On that regard, I wonder...
I must really force my instinct, to build ROVER formers when I do. Those 3 extra rows always look wasted to me, for a mere extra movement (useless on rocky or fungus...). When I can, I do profit of building roads ahead, but that is done in a flexible and not systematic way.

BUT.

If you actually *specialise* two different groups of "roadbuilders" and "realformers", then 2 or 3 Rover formers might be worth their cost.
Figure:

flat tile
Normal Former: 2 turns - 1st moves in, 2nd builds
Rover Former: 1 turn to move in & build = 2 tiles in 2 turns (if adjacent...)
2 Normal Formers: 2 tiles in 2 turns, costing 1 more support (No gain for a single tile!)

rolling tile (OR river, not moving along it)
Normal Former: 3 turns
Rover Former: 2 turns (on the 1st moves in AND starts building)
2 Normal Formers: 2 turns (1 more support)
2 Rover Formers: 1 turn

[Capt Dizle]

Well, I try to limit roadbuilding somewhat. It really isn't necessary to build a road on every tile.

zsozso, can you give us a save at the end of MY 2160, 2171, and 2181?

I would like to compare them to the games played by Hendrick and I.

[zsozso]

I do not have time now to write full report, will do tomorrow.
But here are the saves from 61, 71 and 81. The bottomline in 81:

49 techs, 313 pop, 51 bases, tech cost 3960, labs/turn 1159.
Running demo/fm/knowledge.

I had enough of the non-cooperating opponents (had only 1 Morgan pact and even he was always demanding free techs and only bought 1 for energy). Because all my diplomatic efforts failed to make more pacts, I decided to build a litle Delta-commando force: 3 chaos copters + 3 air-drop defenders. With these I could switch Zak2-s truce into submissive pact in a single turn.
Then I made some further use of those units. If I already spent the mins to build them, I might as well enjoy the benefits, so I ran down Morgan2 as well, same technique single turn to switch from treaty to submissive pact. Next one is Morgan - the remaining 2 Zaks a bit far away to reach....

Anyway, some further little tricks I'm using recently:
Those drop defenders come handy in pod popping around pact brothers bases (the idiots leave the pods unpopped). Thanks to the orbital improvements, I have a full map now so I can see where the pods are and can drop onto them directly - much faster than walking.
Another little trick: I built some land transports with drop pods: these are good for transporting colony pods quickly to planting tile. Next turn, the base is built, so the transport can jump back!

[Capt Dizle]

While I still think its flaky to play from a contrived start, I am seriously impressed that you are doing this with only a few developed bases. This makes me wonder if such a strategy could be used on a real map.

zsozso, your innovative approach and skills confirm your reputation as a SMACMASTER.

I still don't think you'll get there in 19 more turns. I don't think you can get your labs up fast enough and surely you will reach a point of dimishing returns on artifacts and tech from submissives.

Still, a great concept and a great game.

[Capt Dizle]

Oh, it just occurred to me that with the Space Elevator you might be able to grab some artifacts by orbital insertion. You can then just insert a colony pod and presto, node in place. Thats another reason that the University is the faction for fast trancends.

OTOH, artifacts can get you into the dead end part of the tech tree. Isn't it true that with artifacts you can pick up techs with only one prereq discovered?

[Archaic]

Originally posted by MariOne
Ah, BTW, I also found out that in all the recent SMAX games I setup mixing the factions (no Scenario, just normal setup options), even Zak's research began from 2105 and not from first turn!
Anyone else noticed something similar?

If you're still talking about Citizen level here, it's a "feature" supposed to prevent the beginner from getting a tech choice right from the start. Should happen with the human player as well as the AI.

[zsozso]

JT, I was also shocked about this crazy thin expansion strategy when David Byron brought it up years ago. Then I tried it and realized the immense power in it.

A bit more stats about my states I omitted yesterday:
Year 2161: 29 Techs, 27 bases, 86 pop.
25 formers, 2 supply, 2 transport foils.
SE: demo/FM/knowledge
Tech cost 1520, tech per turn 406 (4 turns per tech).
Researching Neural Grafting, getting it next turn, then target MMI.
(still need DAP for it though).
Orbital improvements and drop pods are very important when you play with many small bases - orbital stuff gives you great return on investment, drops make it possible to plant new colony pods made in inner bases quickly on the perimeters.

Year 2171:
38 techs, 32 bases, 102 pop.
41 formers, 4 sea formers, 13 crawlers, 1 trawler.
Building 3 chaos copters and 3 drop plasma garrisons for invasion.
I just have to get those submissive pacts
SE temporaryli switched to demo/green/knowledge, allocation 30% eco, 20% psych, 50%labs - giving techs per 7 turns only.
this is because I do not want to get the extra drones when copters completed, then I'll make punishment sphere in a single base
and support my army from there and thus can switch back to FM.
Anyway I do not mind if I don't research superconductor myself,
because Zak2 has it and he is going to be my first target, probably
get it from him and then I can use my research points for the next tech.

Year 2181:
Major progress due to the success of my millitary investment.
Now I have 1 diplomatic + 2 submissive pacts, popped some AA near
Zak2 bases using drop defenders. I'll have to transport thos home quickly.
I'll walk them to closest Zak2 bases, then drop-transport home from there
using drop equipped land transports. Submissive pacts gave insane amount of cash - first they gave me all they had, then I sold them all my techs 25 energy each - pushing them deep into negative. Next turn they recover from that - some voodoo economics.
49 techs, 313 pop, 52 bases - major colony pod building phase again.
Completed the cloning vats giving me huge growth factor - turning all those small bases into bigger ones. Building the Ascetic Virtues to push the pop limit. My SPs: WP, PTS, VW, ME, CV, CA, PEG.
Science center producing 204 lab points per turn, total 1159 per turn, cost
3960. In the next 5 turns I will build a lot of new bases (11 active colony pods + 23 in production currently) and they will all grow quickly due to the CV. I have 6 sky hydroponocs already, will beeline for Adv.Spaceflight to get power transmitters too, then I go for Digital Sentience (Cybernetic) - this should get me to research speed of new tech each turn soon.

[zsozso]

How to get 5 techs in a single turn without AAs or other factions gifting to you:
look at my save from 2189, I have 70 techs, completing the Universal Translator, currently researching super tensile solids, tech cost 5657, lab per turn 8058.

Hit turn complete. Idiot Zak3 wants to lauch solar shade - veto it.
Unfortunately, I have received UFT from Zak2 last turn - he researched it,
so now I'm getting some "bad techs" offered...
1st offer: frictionless surf(D10), Secretc of manifolds (D13) - choose secrets
2nd offer: frictionless surf(D10), Secretc of creation(D10), Matter editation(B12) - choose ME
3rd offer: frictionless surf(D10), matter transmission (B13) - choose MT
4th offer: frictionless surf(D10), Sing.Mech(D12) - choose FS

and now I have 75 techs done - need 2 more:
temporal mechanics and threshold of transcendence.

[zsozso]

Transcended in 2194 - on transcend level, huge map, SMAX.
The last 4 year saves are attached 2190, 2191, 2192, 2193 - just hit turn complete (a lot of units have not moved yet, but there is no point).

It is worth looking at the 2191 save. It still has max SE setting for technology, producing 13447 lab points per turn - how is that for my "undeveloped" bases, Jimmytrick ? The tech cost is 6570 BTW, so its making 2 techs per turn easy. However, to get to the stage I was in 2192, you should switch SE to Eudamonic and 80% economy, because Threshold of Transcendence is being researched and more than half-done, so there is no need for extra techs the be completed, but the energy comes handy for completion of the 2 expensive SP after - in fact I spent the energy on upgrading rover supply units to some monsters with fission power, 3p aromor and drop and trance - this is cashed in for 200 minerals even at +4 industry setting. So you only need 6 of these to complete the Ascent SP.

I think I'm done with this fast transcend chellenge on huge map - unless someone beats this results...

[Capt Dizle]

Deserves nothing less than a standing ovation zsozso. Still it leaves questions unanswered. Was it the playing style or the jungle start that made the biggest difference. Certainly tempts me to play from your postion and see how I would do with a more traditional playstyle.

Can the Byron style beat the traditional style without a jungle start?

Of course someone can manufacture an even more friendly map and then what.......

Very impressed with your military operations. You are indeed the king of the fast transcend.

[MariOne]

Originally posted by zsozso
Transcended in 2194 - on transcend level, huge map, SMAX.

I think this makes moot for me to still insist getting below the 100 turns bar at Citizen level

[MariOne]

JT, zso showed that it is *possible* to Transcend at huge transced by 2194.
*possible* doesn't mean "anytime" or "always", it *entails* favorable condition.
Transcend-Huge are already TWO restraints on the achievement.
We "could" care to make a cross-table, i.e. a table with TWO variables which can be displayed in one simple page (columns and rows), charting the records for Difficulty and for Planetsize.
Mind, that was not a scenarioed map, that was a "game-provided" map (although a known one), and the starting position was not hand-set, just restarted until you get an acceptable one.