balancing out

[yavoon]

quite good point white elephants, that is sometimes ignored.although I meant it implicitly when I sed scope, I did not say it.

the free for all nature of games can generally lead to just about anyone winning, which is much more evident in smaller games that can be played 1v1. though still, all things equal, the stronger factions have better chances. I was probably misguided in my attempt to guide the thread. but as u can see I had something I wnted to talk about, and no1 talked about it, w/ the exception of blake, and only after some stirring.flubber was of zero help, and really only aggrivated it with his forum nazi reflex action to someone saying something contrary to him.

I obviously can not stop the thread from going in any direction, as is observationally true, but its important to piont out I didnt want this. I know on every forum there are old forum lurkers who just luv their old held views, and jump like rabid heyenas on anyone not in line. I was hoping to avoid them(flubber) but I did not. flubber is amusing I guess in a way, but in another more accurate way, he's not. perhaps it is my fault, I should have taken more care to word my original post.

[yavoon]

also to make one distinction on flubber, its NOT that I don't want to hear from ppl who disagree, its that I don't want to hear from rabid forum nazi's swooping down with cat call 'EVERYTHING' SBALLANCCED GO AWAY.'

thats wut I wnted to avoid, cuz taht leads to the thread we have here, as opposed to wut I had hoped for, a discussion on changes. in that context yer welcome to disagree with me to your hearts content.

[WhiteElephants]

Originally posted by yavoon in that context yer welcome to disagree with me to your hearts content.

Shouldn't that have been, "...to YER hearts content"?

Yer slipping yavoon, yer slipping.

[yavoon]

slipping? I'm practically fallen. if neone might care, these are the changs I thot I'd try out when I got the chance.

giving santiago +3 morale and giving Miriam free recreation commons.

unfortunately right now I'm just sitting at my computer writing papers.

[wheathin]

Maybe what Yavoon meant was...

Far be it for me to suggest that Yavoon may have mis-spoken. I think, rather, he was simply imprecise, although the question raised is interesting:

Given a specific map type, in SP, how should the various factions be re-balanced to that map type to maximize the AI's ability to play them?

I think we all agree that certain maps (smaller, more land, lots of pods) favor momentum factions, while others (bigger, isolated continents, fewer pods) favor builder factions. Some options clearly benefit some factions: more fungus favors Gaians, tech-on-conquest favors Spartans and Beleivers, etc. While in MP human players can take some of this into account (and a human player in SP looks on it as a challenge), in an SP game the AI may just be hobbled, resulting in a game where instead of 6 challenging opponents you might only have 3 or 4 because the others have been crippled by the game parameters.

So, the real issue is, if I (or Yavoon) wanted to play on a map other than standard, what should be done to re-balance the factions in SP and give the AI a better chance.

Is that what you had in mind, yavoon?

[yavoon]

hrrm? I think I sed earlier that I play generally standardized settings. I do some things to help the computer, have lotsa land, make it rainy. but my map size is mostly standard, some small some large.

my native life is almost always avg, tho I spose rare MIGHT help the computer a lil? I just find rare a lil too weenie for me. I try not to make a map for a certain playstyle, as I think its cheating the strategy portion of the game. ie. I dont play huge, arid, rare native life, pod only at landing sites, if I wna be a builder faction.

I believe earlier I also stated that while I recognize balance is changed somewhat(probably less than u think) on the extreme types of maps, that I infact am not taking those into consideration.

but thank you for asking.

[knowhow2]

Wow this thread is like Christmas day for a five year old!

first of all, yavoon, I'm sorry, but I have no idea how to help you with your problem (problem being how to re-balance factions).

But I have to say that Spartans CAN'T impossibly be the one of the weekest factions. A question: what do you consider to be the greatest kind of victory anyone could attain in SMAC? To me it is The Ascent to Transcendence. Guess which year the brilliant minds in Apolyton managed achieve it in, 2179. It took them ONLY 79 turns, SEVENTYNINE !!!!!
Guess which faction? Not the UoP, not the PK, not Hive BUT the Spartans. Although it was done in a small map, I hardly think it would make that big different on a standard map.

And one last thing. It's about Miriam. You don't have to do your own research. Your submissive will do for you. She is perfect against AI in any Maps as long as she don't get stuck on a small island without neighbours, but will suck greatly against 6 human opponents. Conquest, conquest and conquest.

-knowhow2

[yavoon]

well first the gaians beat you, isnt there a gaian transcend in 2172 or something? u also must realize, and I'm sure it was mere oversight on your part. that I have spoken several times on the extreme types of maps being played, and the spartan transcend happened I think on tiny map w/ rare native life, I forget the other settings.

u also must realize that the spartans can take extreme advantage of the stupid ai, whereas to fool u on their strength. for u can go w/ the spartans and not lose a unit almost the entire game. negating spartans huge weakness, replacing units. which of course is completely unrealistic against a better ai, or a real opponent. which can really hurt an attacker even w/ inferior technology.

I have but one thought on the believers, they are a slow starting momentum faction. how can that be good? they get centauri ecology at like 2120, they get planetary networks in like the 50's. so now u can steal tech, but wut if yer next to builders and u can't steal nonlinear? believers need luck to boost their start, they need lotsa energy credits to buy tech, or they need to find a buncha free techs, they need some whirlwind diplo trading, or something, nething. or u end not being able to mount an offensive until like 100 years in, in which case zak is all over ur inferior tech ass.

thanks for input tho

[DavidByron]

Uh.... I transcended in AD2168.
(toot toot!)

I could probably do better by a few years now. The parameters were completely rigged and this was part of the challenge. It was also a difference of play styles between Zsozso (with the previous 2172 record) and I. His style was based on cooperation and building, mine totally ignored alliances and went for a massive number of small cities (Builder vs Borg). I beleive Borg play style is far more efficient ... its just very dull because there's a lot of details to want attention.

[yavoon]

quite true byron tho I think u made a very small map am I right? although this may not be cheating, I always considered the challenge only using the ingame map changing options(ie size/mts/water/native life/rainyness) to be the true spirit.

not to like dig on u or nething.

[DavidByron]

No you could use any game options you wanted short of editing stuff. There's a long discussion about precisely what is considered legal on the 2172 thread.

[yavoon]

I know, as is wut was in my last post. "it may not have been cheating"

I was givnig u my view of the spirit of the challeneg, not saying u broke ne specific challenge rules. as is again backed up by my saying its not a dig at u. man I have the hardest time finding the right words w/ u guys.

=]

[Basil]

Yavoon:
I'm not clear on whether you're looking for:
1) Improvements to the three factions when the AI is playing them.
2) Improvements to the factions when a human is playing them in SP.
3) Improvements to the factions when a human is playing them in MP.

I wouldn't change any of them for human SP play.

For Morgan I would remove the -1 support penalty. I don't think that would bring him completely up to par with the University and the Peacekeepers, but it would go a significant way (especially for the AI), and it doesn't change the fundamental spirit of the faction, at least for me.

For the Spartans I really don't know. I agree with you: I find them weak as well (although that could be due to my play style; they are horribly suited to me - I'm a hybrid with builder leanings). They are very good at a game-opening rush, but fade after that. But I can't think of any fix that fits them. If you give them +1 support it would certainly help the AI play them. You might want to tweak their AI interests as well - they are the only faction whose priorities are Discover/Conquer, and it really doesn't work well.

I find the Believers balanced under the default game settings, which includes pod scattering on and blind research. If you turn pod scattering off and allow directed research then yes, they'd be in bad shape. Maybe reduce the Research penalty to -1 if you make either of these changes (since both of these changes increase the importance of Research)? That preserves their relative strengths and weaknesses. If the AI is running them you might want to change their AI priorities from Conquer/Explore (their default) to, perhaps, Build/Conquer (same as Yang).

Incidentally, I think the Believers would do fine in a game with 7 human-controlled factions. It's almost certain you'll be able to deal with one of the other 6 for tech, and once you get probes and ships you're home free.

A general balancing change I make is to give a -1 Support modifier to Free Market (the SE setting) if I am playing with pod scattering off, since pods are more important to non-marketeers. (This change is obviously linked to the change for Morgan, above.)

[knowhow2]

Just wanna make a comment on the 2179 thing.... I wasn't actually sure about that year so I don't mind being corrected .... but anyway wasn't the latest thing still with the Spartans but just with laser weapon (instead of impact) because of the high morale? I probably should go and look it up but I'm just to lazy .

2168, is this official?

[yavoon]

well I play very limited MP w/ my friends. I'm certainly not balancing them to help myself against the ai. If for no other reason then I don'tplay those factions very often. I'm just balancing them cuz I think they are not as strong as the others. whether this be against the computer or another player.

I'm hesitant to ake -1 support away, but i assure u it crossed my mind. as its very annoying. for now I decided to try and give morgan impunity wealth. at first I don't like giving impunities cuz it locks ppl into certain SE choices, but when u consider how often morgan will pick wealth anyway, it didn't seem so bad.

just as a note, I play w/ podscattering and directed research. I guess I like stuff to do early? I'd play w/ blind but it feels so much more unstrategic that it annoys me.

as for the believers, which faction won't have social psych and ccent ecology at 2120? then believers race probes, which fo crouse is on the way to the virtual world(the best secret project) and industrial automation(where everyone beelines). so I think its very likely the believers simply won't have any techs they can leverage in a trade. and relying on probes to have tech can get quite unreliable.

I think i will change the ai's priorities like that, thanks. u know if there's anyway to change the bonuses given at transcend? or would I have to go around and change every faction but my own to give the ai like a massive support rating or something?