how much does the +2 research do?

[Misotu]

Re: how much does the +2 research do?

Originally posted by icevic Can a well energized UN faction with Knowledge beat a University faction in tech?

Yes.

The PKs are my favourite faction. I have won a number of games by transcendence against UoP players, having out-researched them. Having said that, the key is well-energised - as in *better* energised. Otherwise, it's pretty tough

[Sikander]

Originally posted by WhiteElephants
Mark -- I think the loss of mineral output is offset by producing crawlers for minerals first, and then crawlers for nutrients. Though I'm not sure I agree with the farm/condensor combo for the 4 nutrients.

Sik -- How many minerals can you bring in before you start generating eco damage with the condensor/farm combos lying about? (I imagine you've probably got Tree Farms at this point, I would think you've still got a short ways to go before Hybrids).

White Elephants,

You are correct that I run my minerals to 15+ long before I start replacing workers with crawlers. As for ecodamage, I can't really say with any firm count where my clean limit is because it varies from game to game. Usually it is around 25 when I start really cranking out the condensors. I run some ecodamage from a very early part of the game (2140-2145 usually) so sometimes I get quite a few 'pops' before I start to switch over to specialists. For some reason I don't really notice much terraforming ED even with a fair number of condensors (there may be an overlap effect where a square is within two base radii, and both bases have Tree Farms). I do eventually get around to building Hybrid Forests as my boreholes are built, and I do notice a significant jump in clean minerals when I do this.

Btw, the whole switch is a gradual thing. At first I run around and lay forest almost everywhere. My first pop boom is usually a GA pop boom while running DEMO/FM/Wealth, and is done while I am still using workers exclusively (perhaps a couple doctors to get my bases to 7 pop), and right after I have my Tree Farms and Creches built. Usually I only have about 7 bases up to snuff, but the cost is minimal and the payoff so great that I don't worry about my last few bases that are behind. They will catch up in spades pretty soon. While this is going on I build the colony pods for my next round of base expansion (pop booms are the best time to build colony pods).

At this point my core of bases is at pop 7 (ie plenty of extra room around them), and I have either just gotten or will soon get clean reactors. Once I do every mature base cranks out four or five more formers (their earlier formers have already departed for the periphery to prep those new base sites), and it is these which start to convert my terrain from forest to condensor farms. The first step is to build a few mines so that as I convert I don't suffer a drop in minerals. I pull the crawlers which were hauling minerals from forests to the mines as they are completed. The next step is to convert unworked forests to condensor farms, and using my surplus crawlers (about half of those that were hauling mins from forests are superfluous as the other half have moved to mines) to haul the nuts back to the base. It takes about three turns for a stack of formers to a turn square into a condensor farm, and it takes about three condensor farms to bump my pop to 14 from the 7 they are at currently.

Meanwhile my outlying bases are starting to build infrastructure. Usually I send one crawler along to each new base, and place it on a mine to help get them started. When most of my core bases are prepped (regardless of where my new bases are at) I start another pop boom. This time however it is a classic Demo/Planned affair, and all the new guys are turned into Librarians. This pop boom can go on for quite a while, as my science doesn't suffer from the inefficiency. As my first round of condensor farms are being finished I start to crank out boreholes to replace the energy and mineral production from the 6 or so forests that are still being worked. Eventually (exception HQ base if I have built the ME) all of the forest will be removed and replaced by condensor/farms and crawlers, or boreholes.

Usually my core bases will hit the hab limit well before I quit this second pop boom. There are plenty of things to build, including crawlers for the new bases, probe teams, SPs, and military units. However I tend to focus on clean colony pods at this point, which are stored up for a future pod boom at every mature base. When my core bases are maxed out (for the moment) in nut production I then pod boom them up to their new capacity. At that point these bases are finished for the midgame. They have a good number of crawlers hauling nuts (perhaps 8-10 or so) and perhaps 4-5 boreholes for mins and energy. Populations run at 20+, the vast majority being librarians.

The outlying bases do not go through the hybrid build up via forests. Instead I build them from the start as specialist bases with mines first, then condensor farms, and finally boreholes. I only run these guys up to the hab limit (usually 16). I will usually switch to Demo / Green / Knowledge here and drive toward fusion as fast as I can. When I get soil enrichers in place I will pop boom again, and the outlying bases (those that didn't pod boom previously) will crank out colony pods for the core bases (to bump them up to their new nuts level), and when this is done they will crank out clean colony pods for their own pod boom. Sometimes this new pop boom is the final one via the cloning vats, but most of the time it is another Demo/Planned affair.

All this goes smashingly well if I am alone on a medium to large continent, and sometimes a good deal less so if I am next to Yang. If I have enough room for my core bases, I will usually just hold Yang off with probes until air power (it's expensive to buy him out so early, and going for military techs early enough to take him out militarily slows my progress so much that it usually isn't worth it.

[Ned]

Ran two automations last night, with 4 Dr. Z's and 3 Lal's on a standard Planet. Score: Lal 2, Dr. Z 0.

I will try a couple more on 180 x 120 maps, one with lots of water, one with very little.

Howerver, it appears that:

Size does count.

Ned

[WhiteElephants]

Sik --

I think the GA pop boom combo is interesting in that I haven't put much thought into this besides for factions that can't pull off a "normal" boom. I imagine this is only viable for a faction (like Lal, that I presume your refering to in your post) who can run the Demo/FM/Wealth combo. I also like the idea of building pods when you pop booming.

Often I try to boom pre-tree farms, so the farm/condensor combo would be out of the picture because of eco damage and because of the fact that I simply wouldn't be able to build condensors unless I've built the Weather Paradigm.

I'm still iffy about whether I could sacrafice building units for defense, and or facilities like command centers and perimeter defenses (I'm talking MP) over building four to five terraformers to build all those farm/condensors. Granted they would probably only take a turn or two at this point, but would also drag down my mineral output by that many notches until clean reactor become available.

I also build my bases roughly two tiles apart and on occassion one. This doesn't leave room for an abundance of crawlers without sacraficing something in the process. For example, do I keep the crawler on the forest for two minerals, or change that tile into a farm/condensor for 4 nuts? I suppose boreholes would aleviate this problem, but they take time and come a little later in the game.

[Sikander]

White Elephants,

Originally posted by WhiteElephants
I think the GA pop boom combo is interesting in that I haven't put much thought into this besides for factions that can't pull off a "normal" boom. I imagine this is only viable for a faction (like Lal, that I presume your refering to in your post) who can run the Demo/FM/Wealth combo.

Actually I use it for the University (the example above is from a recent series of University games) as well, though only up to pop 7. With the HGP and VW and Rec Commoms and 20% psych allocation it works well. That may sound like a lot of early SPs to get, but I get them probably 90% of the time. Btw, the Demo/FM/Wealth/GA combo pays nice dividends if you manage to find a trading partner or two. That's +4 econ, which really rocks. For Lal I am tempted to run things further vis the GA pop boom because he is so easy to GA with (at least with those initial bases). I will wait longer (for techs and to build the Net Nodes) with Lal, but I tend to run his pop boom to 14 or as close as I can get to it.

Originally posted by WhiteElephants
I'm still iffy about whether I could sacrafice building units for defense, and or facilities like command centers and perimeter defenses (I'm talking MP) over building four to five terraformers to build all those farm/condensors. Granted they would probably only take a turn or two at this point, but would also drag down my mineral output by that many notches until clean reactor become available.

I know what you mean. I only build two formers per base (1 immediately and 1 after it reaches 16+ mins) before clean reactors. In the example above I wait for clean reactors before I crank out all those new formers. My beelines are Ind Auto, SotHB, Restrictions Lifted and then Clean. I usually get it somewhere near the end of my GA pop boom. Btw, all of this is supposing SP as I have never played MP. I quite agree that all of this finery would likely be suicidal in a MP game, as your enemies will be visiting your valuable but vulnerable lands well before the AI would.

Originally posted by WhiteElephants
I also build my bases roughly two tiles apart and on occassion one. This doesn't leave room for an abundance of crawlers without sacraficing something in the process. For example, do I keep the crawler on the forest for two minerals, or change that tile into a farm/condensor for 4 nuts? I suppose boreholes would aleviate this problem, but they take time and come a little later in the game.

I build three apart on the diagonals (two intervening squares) usually, or two to three squares apart along the coast (leaving a hollow center on medium and large continents where crawlers can be safe). The example above is a 'three on the diags' spacing, which allows plenty of room for 7 workers and some crawlers. I try to use mines when min restrictions are lifted to replace those mineral crawlers which previously worked forest. Eventually I will put boreholes down in numbers, but that takes a long time even with 5+ formers per base. Usually I finish up with super formers because I can get Fusion and Advanced Ecol. Eng. before all of my terraforming is completed.

[Ned]

Well, I would say it was a "draw" on a 180x120 waterworld. At the end, two out of the three LAL factioins were twice as powerful as any of the four Dr. Z factions. However, all the Dr. Z's were slightly ahead of the LAL's. SP's were evenly divided.

What does this suggest then? Dr. Z can keep up the tech race throughout the game while being hampered in his growth opportunities.

I would also like to report just how ugly this game was in the end. No faction build more than 3 tree farms and none build a Centauri Preserve. Pops were pandemic. Global warming abounded. In addition the artificial idiots voted to melt the caps. There was almost no land left.

This illustrates also that the AI has no understanding of the importance of tree farms, hybrid forests, CP's and TP's to reduction in faction ED.

Ned

[mark13]

Ned,

Much as I approve of the excellent work here, all your tests really show is the AI's ability to research with the respective faction. I would recommend a 'DT-style' MP game with the two factions (or even a hotseat game against yourself) which would represent the two factions' respective capabilities. What your tests really show is the AI's competence when playing the two factions (or lack thereof ).

[Ned]

Mark, If you look at page 48 of the SMACX manual, the game designers used this method to test whether the new SMACX factions were properly "balanced" with the SMAC factions. A logical extension would be to run the same test on the original factions.

What I think the data shows is what I thought was the case by playing these factions and by playing against them. Dr. Z can keep up with LaL in research, but Lal will be much larger and more powerful. In an MP game, this means only one thing, doesn't it?

Ned

[Net Maverick]

Originally posted by Sikander


Compare:

A forest square with a tree farm and hybrid forest produces:

3 nuts, 2 mins, 3 energy (+1 for FM), and uses one pop to harvest it. Total 4 energy and 1/2 specialist for another 1.5 to 2.5. Totals = 5.5 pre fusion, 6.5 post fusion. In addition you also receive 2 mins.

Any non-rocky square with farm / condensor produces 4 nuts, and takes no worker just a crawler. Those nuts can support 2 specialists = 6 energy pre-fusion, 10 energy post fusion.

Sikander:

I do not qualify as an experienced player, as opposed to yourself, but I'll have to argue with this view. In the second example, you've provided the specialist base with a crawler...and I think the only way to compare is to give both POVs an equal amount of units. When you alter your strategy so that the first one also has a crawler (note: let's assume here that commerce income and energy lost to inefficiency cancels each other out).

When running FM a forest square with tree-farm and hybrid forest produces:
1 nut-2 mins-4 energy, and it requires the allocation of one citizen. Send a crawler to a 2000+ square, with an already prepared solar collector and one echelon mirror. 3 energy as a base, 1 extra from echelon mirror, and 1 from FM....a total of 5 energy. But wait...it doesn't stop there. Say there is a river running through the crawled/forested square...there's a freebie +1 energy bonus. If you happen to have the ME...another +1. And if you have a second echelon mirror in range? Then you would be producing a total of 1 nut-2 mins-12 energy (let's just go with 10 as an average). Add a second worker, and you'll get 2 nut- 4 mins- 14 energy. The energy income would be more towards 18 if you happen to have constructed an energy park. Impressive indeed...much more productive than two specialists.

You might argue that the crawler brings in 2 nuts as opposed to 1 after the first worker is produced, thus the second worker would be produced much faster, netting you turn advantage. But consider this...after your second worker is finished, you would have 0 nuts until you produce a crawler, whereas the worker base would be producing 2. It all evens out.

[Sikander]

Net Maverick,

The response from which you quote me concerned the productivity of squares as opposed to methods. I was showing that food production can outpace forest in terms of total energy produced. I did note that there were numerous advantages to forests over condensor farms, including the crawler (1-2 turns production) and the extra terraforming required for the condensor farm square. Another consideration which may well even up the bonus supply crawler in cost is the fact that workers may need to be made content by facilities (1 time min cost and econ), psych (% of energy) or police (1 time min cost, and perhaps a support cost as well).

If you want to compare methods, then please consider that your energy park terraforming would require a good deal of time as well as some space not too far from your base to do it. I never thought that an energy park produced less energy than other forms of terraforming (though it will produce less in the late game where you have Soil Enrichers, Food Satelites, Energy Satelites, Mining Stations and Transcendii), but instead was comparing two methods of terraforming your base area by their energy productivity in the early and mid game. IMO specialists take longer to get into play, but are ultimately more productive in the long run for a given amount of space. This is why I shift from worked forests to condensor farms worked by crawlers and worked boreholes as the game moves along. I increase the output of the land by investing former time and crawlers. The crawler is a much less significant investment than the terraforming.

[Net Maverick]

Sikander:

Your specialist strategy can out-produce a worker strategy, but only when you've reached the maximum amount of squares you can work AND your specialists are all transcendi. If one of these requirements are not fulfilled, the specialist base's energy production would be equal to the worker base at best. Try it out if you don't find this plausible.
As for the drone control facilities...chances are that you have already constructed them before you convert your units to specialists, so the only advantage you would have is the extra income from the lack of maintenance costs...and this can be more than made up for with the worker base's higher mineral income. Even if you have not previously built drone control facilities, your advantage would be very minor.
Of course, when one utilizes a specialist strategy, one would not need to build tree-farms and/or hybrid forests. I cannot say from experience, but I believe that the resource advantage a worker base gains before the specialist base reaches maximum population would make up for the minerals spent on these two facilities.
One more thing I'll like to add...a specialist base would need to produce at least two crawlers to give it a mineral income of 10 or more, which would be two more extra crawlers for the worker base, meaning 12 extra energy average, and 28 extra in the best case.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Net Maverick
Sikander:

Your specialist strategy can out-produce a worker strategy, but only when you've reached the maximum amount of squares you can work AND your specialists are all transcendi. If one of these requirements are not fulfilled, the specialist base's energy production would be equal to the worker base at best. Try it out if you don't find this plausible.

Net Maverick,

Let's do a thought experiment.

Assumptions:

Non HQ base with no specials, and no SPs. The available production area is the base radius (ie twenty squares plus the base square).

Tech level = fusion, soil enrichers, hybrid forests

SE settings = +2 econ

Specialist base = 5 boreholes + 15 condensor / farms / soil enricher

Minerals = 5 boreholes x 6 mins = 30 (plus whatever the base square produces)

Raw Energy = 5 boreholes x 7 energy = 35 raw energy + base square

Nutrients = 15 condensor / farm / soil enrichers x 6 nuts per square = 90 nuts (plus base square)

Specialist energy = 45 pop - 5 working boreholes = 40 x 5 energy apeice for engineers = 200

Total energy = 235 + base square.


Worker + Specialist base = 5 boreholes + 15 farm (moist) / solar collector (3000 meters) / soil enricher

Minerals = 5 boreholes x 6 mins + 8 mins from rolling squares = 38 mins + base

Raw Energy = (5 boreholes x 7) + (15 solar collectors x 5) = 110 energy + base

Nuts = 15 farm / soil enrichers x 4 = 60 nuts

Specialist Energy = 30 pop - 20 working = 10 engineers = 50 energy

Total energy = 160 + base square

Even running demo planned (for the pop boom) and losing all raw energy to inefficiency this specialist scheme still outperforms the worker + specialist base, even if that base had the Merchant Exchange and was the HQ.

I realize that gauging the productivity of any scheme depends on several factors including that moving target (tech level) and your terraforming and spacing scheme. You may have a scheme which kicks butt in various circumstances. I for instance don't build bases which have 20 squares production area early on, as it is wasteful (pop limits, though I do pod boom fairly liberally).

The specialist strategy gets better with time no doubt. It starts out implausible (only doctors), works it's way to debateable (librarians), and by the time engineers are available it becomes a force to be reckoned with. With Transcendii and satelites it is clearly superior. Consider the above specialist base with food satelites and energy satelites aplenty(!). It costs more in former time, and those 15 crawlers, but it does produce more. Whether these costs are better spent elsewhere depends on so many different factors that there is undoubtedly no correct answer per se.

Originally posted by Net Maverick
As for the drone control facilities...chances are that you have already constructed them before you convert your units to specialists, so the only advantage you would have is the extra income from the lack of maintenance costs...and this can be more than made up for with the worker base's higher mineral income. Even if you have not previously built drone control facilities, your advantage would be very minor.

I'm not sure why you think that your worker base will have a significantly higher base mineral income. I build plenty of boreholes, and before that mines as a stopgap if necessary. I shoot for 30 minerals per base (I don't refuse more, nor do I expend any effort getting more than 30). Whatever advantage that I gain from not having to build drone facilities certainly is as significant as a few crawlers (I don't have the game here, but rec commons and holo theatres cost quite a few minerals up front, and 4 econ a turn IIRC).

Originally posted by Net Maverick
Of course, when one utilizes a specialist strategy, one would not need to build tree-farms and/or hybrid forests. I cannot say from experience, but I believe that the resource advantage a worker base gains before the specialist base reaches maximum population would make up for the minerals spent on these two facilities.

I always build the tree farm for the terraforming ED reduction and plus to econ. Eventually I usually get around to the hybrid farms too, though it's priority is lower.

Originally posted by Net Maverick
One more thing I'll like to add...a specialist base would need to produce at least two crawlers to give it a mineral income of 10 or more, which would be two more extra crawlers for the worker base, meaning 12 extra energy average, and 28 extra in the best case.

You overemphasize the opportunity cost of a crawler. They are dirt cheap to build, mobile, and pay for themselves fairly quickly even on an unimproved square. If necessary they can also be turned in for full value for an SP or a prototype. It is the terraforming which is valuable. You can bet that if I had a square sitting around which produced 6 energy I would have a crawler sitting on it very soon.

[Ned]

Sik, Sounds impressive. There are two problems: First, the Specialist base has a much greater investment than the non specialist base, considering the condensors and crawlers (and not considering that the average player will have virtually all forests by the time hybrid forests are in play). The other problem is commerce income. Correct me if I am wrong, but only raw energy, not energy from specialists, counts for commerce income.

I have never had a base size 45 since I began playing this game. However, I often have bases producing 200+ ec's per turn, a great deal of it from commerce.

The one advantage I see in the specialist approach is that specialist energy is not lost to waste. The disadvantages are cost, time to set up, lack of mineral production, and low commerce income.

Ned

[WhiteElephants]

As a supporter of specialist I feel I ought to chime in, though this subject can be difficult to articulate.

I think there is a myth surrounding the the specialist base concerning the amount of time and resources involved. I think the reason to use the specialist bases is because they create turn advantage, and are cheaper. I, myself, haven't created an all specialist base, but am undoubtabley specialist "heavy" when I can be -- usually over half a given bases total population.

In my experience specialist bases do not cost more, or take more time to set up, or produce less minerals. For the most part terraforming for these bases are exactly the same as a non-specialist base so time is not an issue. The only difference in time is the time it takes to build the crawlers that ferry in food and minerals, but if you build mineral crawlers first the amount of time it takes to build the next crawler becomes shorter and shorter (don't you really only need 10 minerals per turn anyway?). This is probabaly standard for any base. The difference comes when I continue to build crawlers to bring in nutrients. At this point the crawlers can be rushed after 10 minerals are accumulated. As that nutrient crawler takes its position in the field, workers are turned into specialists since the food they were generating is no longer needed (I'm assuming that I've pop boomed to size 7 at this point, or am quite near this). At this point, the only time/money loss you could argue is the time/money put into the crawlers used for nutrients, which, in my opinion, is offset by the transformation of a worker into a specialist. The only facilities required are a rec. common, and a children's creche -- net nodes, energy banks, research hospitals, and recycling tanks are bonus facilities. With the right amount of crawlers for nutrients you won't need a holo theatre, saving you three energy a turn and the time/minerals it takes to build it.

Think of this outside the variables that are being proposed (i.e. no borholes, Merchant Exchange, Free Market, Tree Farms, Hybrid Forests, forest with rivers, 4000+ meter land, energy parks, and the base being your HQ). Work from the ground up. The only really variable that is extremely helpful in this situation is that you've got a nutrient resource square (or your on the coast) in your base radius, and your using a faction that can pop boom. If you don't have either of these then you've got to wait till later to pull this off.

[Paul]

The biggest problem I see with Sikander's example are the populations of his bases. Hab domes come very late in the game, so it would be more realistic to use a maximum population of 18 (PK + AV) or less for your example.