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**Drago Sinio** · May 16, 2001, 14:17

Played this way, the Spartans produce roughly as many troops as Yang, and they are all Elite, giving them the extra move. The Spartan infantry units attacking a base defender get the 25% infantry bonus plus the 50% elite bonus which overpowers Yangs Perimeter defense, even with sensors. Even Elite defenders were no trouble against the chaos weaponed attackers.

I suppose a human opponent could devise some defense against this, but the AI is just hopeless. The AI needlejets arent well coordinated enough to do much damage,and they seem programmed to completely avoid attacking Elite defenders. They do attempt to pick off the crawlers, whis IS annoying. I dont recommend building crawlers until the "front lines" are out of needlejet range. I didnt try it, but you could add armor to the crawlers , which are also Elite. I think that might scare away the needlejets, I dont know.

I do agree that Yang or Miriam could also use this tactic, although it would be more difficult for them to produce Elite troops.

What I think is unbalancing is the crawlered-Spartans ability to produce modern (tech parity) Elite Troops in quantity and quickly.

**johndmuller** · May 16, 2001, 14:23

I often play the agressive factions in a builder style (perhaps one should call this Hybrid instead) and I guess I agree with both of you in that if you play any of them in a less single minded fashion, you can do better than might have been expected. You might even say something similar about hawking up the builder factions too.

About the Spartans in particular, it seems to me that the AI plays them a bit worse than average, if not worse than all the other factions. While they can be a major early pain if they are able to absorb another faction on their way to your borders, they often stall out and in many cases I have seen their bases stagnate despite easy fixes (sometimes I feel sorry for them and send a former or 2 into their territory to get them moving again). The AI doesn't seem to make as good a use of Santiago and her strengths as it does of the others.

Even when the Spartans are strong, they seem to be less dangerous than say, the Believers, in that they seem to be more "honorable" (like if you pay them off they stay paid off for a while). The other interesting thing about AI Santiago is her propensity (IMhO) to shift from land to sea expansion earlier and more intensively than the other AI factions. All in all, I would put her, along with Dierdre and Zak of the original 7, on my favorite neighbors list (I don't seem to get along with Lal).

When playing builder Spartans, I've found the chore of getting rid of Miriam and/or Yang to often be rather tedious because by the time that the builder Spartans are ready to tackle them, there are so many units and/or bases that it takes forever to break through, particularly if you need to attack them overseas. Similarly, you get behind in tech w/r the builders, although this doesn't seem to be as much of a problem.

**cbn** · May 17, 2001, 00:39

"Although in truth I think the Spartans played this way are almost too easy, too unbalanced. The other factions are completely defenseless against them."

Good post but the quote at the end was something that I could not agree with. Yang, for example can be played much the same way since his police and support bonuses mean that they throw a lot of units at you , need few facilities, while their industry bonus means they are pumping them out faster. Morgan can use tons of crawlers for energy and buy cities from beneath you. The university can get to crawlers first and then out tech you so that your poor rovers are dead meat against planes and the planes are constantly plinking your crawlers etc etc.

I am with you when it comes to the value of crawlers. They are hugely important. But I see nothing in the spartans advantages that make them unbalanced. A great momentum faction--- sure. Better than other factions on some worlds/ settings but worse in other situations (ie huge worlds). Unbalanced-- no way.

IMHO the other factions can use crawlers equally effectively so unless you see something inherently unbalancing in the spartans factional advantages...... It has been my experience that the Spartans' weaknesses are substantial enough to counteract their strengths.

[This message has been edited by cbn (edited May 16, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by cbn (edited May 16, 2001).]

**cbn** · May 17, 2001, 16:48

Drago:
The core of my disagreement with your assertion would be the following

1. You assign the Spartans a 50% morale bonus when in fact it is much less than this comparatively speaking-- Given equivalent facilities I believe the Spartans factional bonus is two morale upgrades or 25%. This ignores the fact that the Hive can almost always grab the command nexus and achieve quick morale equality for land troops if they wish.

2. You assert that the Spartans can build as well as the Hive. This ignores the Hives industry factional bonus (+1 industry) and the Spartans factional deficet. The Hive can build everything cheaper by a 20% margin (although you can argue that the Spartans better economy balances this). This makes it more likely for the Hive to outbuild the Spartans for key Secret Projects and means that more crawlers are operational faster and to greater effect. All those elite troops will face a swarm of Hive defenders and even a basic very green 4-1-2 rover will take out your elite 8-1-1 or 8-2-1 infantry. (If armouring the attackers the cost can get quite high and they remain vulnerable)

3. You do not consider the Hives support and police bonuses by running Police State. For anyone else there is a corresponding efficiency hit to run this setting but the Hive's lessened support requirements and +1 Growth mean better terraformed and larger cities faster (or just more of them if expanding Borg style since you could always build your colony pod faster given equivalent nuts as compared to the spartans.) Also the police bonus means that a hive player is more likely to have more military in his bases and need not spend time/money on drone control facilities.

4. You term the contest as one between attackers and defenders. I would argue that the attackers almost always have a huge advantage regardless of faction. The weapon to armour ratio is almost always 2:1 and the attacker can sea or artillery bombard to reduce defense. The automatic perimeter defense does not eliminate the attackers advantage IMHO but it does mean that those troops have a tougher time. You also seem to assume that the attacker will be the one attacking all the time. A prepared opponent will smack you around on the way in so unless your attackers are armoured or stacked with defenders, you could be on the receiving end of the unfavorable weapon to armour ratio.

5. It is completely possible for another faction to produce elite troops as well by a combination of monoliths, SE settings and facilities. It is much harder I'll admit than for the Spartans.

This is not to say that I think the Hive are STRONGER than the Spartans. If you asserted Hive superiority I would talk about their crippling economy minus and their difficulty in pop booming due to the inability to run democracy. On the military side I would cite your points about free prototypes and higher morale.

I simply think that there is enough balance there that it is difficult to say that one faction is unbalanced versus the other. Defending against your tactics, you would find a swarm of low cost, unarmoured and maybe low morale rovers whose sole purpose is to "get" one of your attackers. Unless heavily armoured, the attackers would be very vulnerable and the attacker could hardly afford a one for one exchange.

As always there is no real solution to these questions other than actual play and the balance of opinion in the multiplayer forums does not support the idea that the Spartans are unbalanced. I like your strategy and have used a similar one with the Hive but fundamentally cannot see how the Spartans could do it SO much more effectively than other factions.

[This message has been edited by cbn (edited May 17, 2001).]

**Drago Sinio** · May 17, 2001, 20:09

cbn: I think I should make it clear that my comments apply to SP games, rather than multiplayer. Against a Human controlled Yang, the (Human controlled) Spartans would not have the huge advantage they do against the AI.

Point by point I would respond that:

1: The 50% bonus is for any Elite unit, not just Spartans. You are right that the Spartan advantage is 2 morale levels or upgrades.

2: The Spartans CAN build as well as the Hive, by using crawlers. I have not seen the AI use crawlers that way, ever. And Yangs hordes, as controlled by the AI cant touch the Elite Spartans. The Spartans extra movement point keeps them out of range. I am far from being the best player in the world, but the AI Yang will rarely or never win a battle against my Spartans. I expect a more "attack oriented" player would never, ever lose a battle.

3: The police factor isn't any advantage against a crawlered Spartan, since drones are so easily controlled by specialists. And specialists are easily fed by crawlers. On support, I agree that Yang does have the advantage. But the crawlers also counter that to a large degree.

4: I agree, except that again, the extra move an Elite attacker gets will usually keep them out of range of a bases defenders. Especially with some carefully placed "zone of control" blockers in bunkers or rocky squares,etc. If Yang had a ton of rovers, then the attackers would need to be armored & ECM to survive. But AI Yang doesnt seem to build many Rover Garrisons. Or at least not enough to cause any trouble.

5: You are correct that the other factions can produce some Elite units. But the Spartans run by a Human player can produce JUST Elite units. In huge numbers. If I remember correctly, once you switch to the "Power" SE setting, all you need is a command center to build Elite troops. I dont think any other faction can do that . I think Yang would need a command center and a Bioenhancement center to build Elites without needing a Monolith upgrade. I rarely play as Yang so I am not sure about that.

I will have to try a crawlered Yang game, and see how the Strategy works for him. He could certainly get the Command Nexus first, thats for sure. I dont know how long it would take for him to research the crawler tech, though. You would want to beeline for the Cyborg Factory I think. I suppose the strategy would be to expand rapidly, then when you have crawlers and the Cyborg Factory, you could start attacking your neighbors.

johndmuller: I agree that the AI has NO idea what to do with the Spartans. The Ai does play Yang & Miriam fairly well though. You have to kill them while they are small, or you have a problem!

**cbn** · May 18, 2001, 06:45

Drago

Sorry if I misunderstood. I did appreciate that you were talking about a SP game but also thought that your assertion that the Spartans were "unbalanced" meant that they were stronger than other factions. Once you master crawler usage all of the factions are unbalanced in human hands when played against the AI. Generally when someone asserts that a faction is unbalanced they mean that it has clear advantages over other factions if all are played with equal competence.

I must continue to dispute your point that the Spartans can build as well as the Hive. Your assertion is based on the idea that an AI Yang will not build correctly or well (which is usually true) but this would be equally true of ANY faction in AI hands. As the Believers I have out-researched the University by crawlering energy but that says nothing about the factions and a whole lot about the AI.

My point, which I maintain, is that the strat you propose is a good one for pretty much every faction. Intensive terraforming combined with crawlers means that you can maximize factors of production meaning faster growth, more research and faster builds. However, if you do this as the Spartans you should be aware that against equally competent opposition you would find that

University has better tech
Morgan will have comparitively more cash and could probe you
Yang would likely have more units, more crawlers, a better build rate and likely more bases
etc etc

I'm not saying that any of these factions are SUPERIOR. I am a big advocate of the idea that the factions are reasonably balanced (other than the aliens). There are certain obvious situations where some are better than others but overall there are reasonable tradeoffs that make them all playable.

Oh and my usual beeline for Yang is pretty standard as set out by players for a variety of factions-- Ind. Auto for crawlers followed by all the restriction lifting techs ( sidetrip to or stealing the impact ability along the way depending on circumstances) and then onward to D:AP and MMI. Yang is actually not THAT terrible a researcher but the economy minus does hurt. My "solution" is the tried and true Super Science city where as much energy as possible is flooded through it. Enough crawlers bringing energy can make a huge impact on the research rates.

[This message has been edited by cbn (edited May 18, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by cbn (edited May 18, 2001).]

**Drago Sinio** · May 18, 2001, 09:37

What creates the "unbalanced" condition is mostly the "Elite" morale. WIthout the crawlers, the Spartans are restricted to producing small numbers of units, and slowly. With crawlers giving them the ability to produce large numbers of Elite units , quickly, I feel they are "too strong" . One Elite unit is worth two or three ordinary ones, in my opinion.

Any faction can be strengthened with crawler use, but with Spartans it is just scary!. Its as if you gave Yang Chaos rovers at the beginning of the game.

I think what I am trying to communicate is that the advantage the Spartans get from crawlers is larger than the other factions.

**cbn** · May 18, 2001, 11:57

and I guess that is where I disagree. I see elite units as very very useful but see no imbalance. My typical force is a combo of higher and lower weapon attackers (I like cheap "throwaway units). Even the lowest morale impact rover will take out ANY unarmoured attacker.

Simple tactics and preparation can negate much of the move advantage of the elite attacker. I generally build a 1 square road out in each direction from vulnrable bases. This allows a full attack at all units 2 squares away (with a retreat into the base for repairs) and a hurried attack at 66% on units 3 squares out. If the base is surrounded by a 2 movement terrain type your elite infantry would have to stop next to the base and be on the receiving end of at least one attack.(and roads that might aid the attacker are always cut to create kill zones)

Anyway, thats really all I have to say. I do see the value of the morale bonus for the spartans and can accept that this makes them equally strong with all the other factions. What I cannot accept is that this advantage alone can compensate for the deficiencies in other areas to make the Spartans a stronger faction than others. We disagree, fair enough. I understand what you are saying and hope that I have clearly stated what I was trying to say. The fact that we remain unconvinced of the others viewpoint is probably evidence of a good discussion.

Drago, do you play MP? If so you should test your idea against other humans. If the Spartans are unbalanced as you say, you should win the clear majority of your games, assuming equally strong play. I even volunteer to play you although I am far far from the strongest player on here and almost brand new to MP. It could be a 2 player game (with or without AI) on pretty much any size world although for your strat larger worlds would be most appropriate so the crawler strategy could be used extensively. I'm actually serious about this. You put forth a proposition vehemnetly with which I cannot agree and I would like to see the strategy in action. If you kicked my butt I would have to reassess my views (hey I am always learning). It is not completely determinative of anything since you may be a stronger player than I but it could be fun.

What do you say? 3 games played concurrently on various sizes of different random worlds in either SMAC or SMAX with you as the Spartans and myself as some other faction (lets say the Hive although given your argument I should be able to choose any of them ). I'm sure we can find someone to set up the games.

**Drago Sinio** · May 18, 2001, 13:26

I have never played MP,but I agree that a human could likely defend against unarmored Elite infantry, as you say. I dont know what would happen if a cheap, low morale "throw away" Rover attacked an Elite best Armor ECM infantry unit. But I suspect you would lose a few Rovers that way.

At the very least a human player could find the Spartans before they got "crawlered", which would be the simplest way. Once the Spartans got to producing Elite Chaos Rovers though, in quantity, they would be VERY hard to defend against.

If you would like to try playing some email type games, that would be fun.

I dont know if I would be any good, since I have never tried one. But I am sure I would enjoy it , regardless of the outcome.

Would have to be a SMAC game, I like SMAX but it just will not run right on my machine. (Constant Terran crashes towards the end of the game).
[This message has been edited by Drago Sinio (edited May 18, 2001).]

**cbn** · May 18, 2001, 17:16

Email me at sharris41@hotmail.com and we can work out the details of a few games. I have visions of swarms of elite troops coming at my bases (LOL). Once we have an idea of how we want to play it we can bother someone else for the map setup.

As for you best armour ecm infantry unit-- This unit would be expensive if it had any kind of weapon at all and for the same mineral cost I could get 2 rovers and probably a couple of cheapo artillery. More likely though is that I would have 1 or two best weapon units around just to handle those units

**mark13** · May 18, 2001, 18:48

quote:

As for you best armour ecm infantry unit-- This unit would be expensive if it had any kind of weapon at all and for the same mineral cost I could get 2 rovers and probably a couple of cheapo artillery. More likely though is that I would have 1 or two best weapon units around just to handle those units

Though I don't have any stats to back this up, it might prove more cost-effective to build a high morale, normal 8-1-1, and upgrading to a 8-3+-1. Though the versatility of a couple of units may be advantageous, the Spartans will need to look after their unts, and most decent human players keep at least one rover or (if available) jet to keep watch and pick off any unarmed intruders. With decent armour, and maybe even AAA later in the game, I can foresee some Spartan invasions becoming *very* hard to stop indeed.

**cbn** · May 21, 2001, 09:49

Mark13 -- I agree that they are potent and would not want to war with a spartan that has equivalent population and industrial capacity. One of my points is that they should have less capacity than some of the others.

Drago Sinio and I have decided to play a 3 game set. While neither of us claim to be experts we will test our positions against each other. There is now a thread in MP entitled Drago Sinio-cbn Spartan Challenge Series. It should be fun and I'm guessing I might learn a thing or two about the Spartans.

**The Commodore** · May 21, 2001, 10:19

Heh. Smart little debate here, but I think that the true power of the Spartans is being ignored. They are one of the few Momentum factions which can have great tech. Both Yang and Miriam are poor tech-wise. Using this, I can take the lead early on through research. The Spartans are set up to have the highest tech troops besides the UoP or Morgan, and their troops shall be better. Their morale boon makes it hard for Dee to run over 'em in a greenrush. I admit, they were my first faction, so I have fond memories.

IMHO, they are the best Hybrid faction in SMAC, although in SMAX the Pirates and 'Borgs match them as Hybrids.

Sadly, they can't realy out-do the UoP or Morgan at Building.

Please, do tell how these games go. If Drago ever needs a replacement...I'm here.

**cbn** · May 22, 2001, 00:41

HI commodore

Glad to see you back. I never disputed that the Spartans are a strong faction. My only point was my belief that other factions have compensating advantages that can counteract those of the Spartans. I may be wrong-- time will tell.

If you are interested in the results check in on the MP thread sometimes. We are just started but the turnaround time for 2 players should be good and Googlie is going to post updates from time to time. Also, as you know from AXT 041 and 043, I like posting a storyline of sorts.(Don't know that anyone cares to read the stuff but I enjoy doing it)-- So drop by sometime--- I will remember you if we need a replacement player. If you are interested in a similar challenge I would be interested in a couple of months.

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