Base Size and Pollution

[Ned]

I can confirm that Centauri Meditation adds two to clean minerals. After researching the tech, the my base ED went to 35 from 33.

3 pops + 14 CP's + Centauri Meditation (2) + 16 = 35.

I will now build the Pholos Mutagen and see if it "doubles" the base clean minerals from "18" to "36."

Ned

[johndmuller]

Ned, your research, combined with the postings of MariOne seem to indicate that there is indeed a problem with using the Scenario Editor to investigate this issue. The notion that the game is maintaining some data item(s) on the side, rather than calculating the ED from scratch each time is strongly supported by this information. I hope this does not prove to be true in other areas of the program as well or else many of the theories based on using the Scenario Editor will be in doubt.

For my contribution, I forced myself to calclulate the ED at one of the bases in my current game according to the formula - summary below.

Playing Yang, Planet-Zero (=3 in formula), Diff-Trans (=5), Life-Norm (=2)
I have 57 total techs and 32 bases amd no relevant SPs
there are 24 Tree Farms, 22 Centauri Preserves and 8 Hybrid Forests
there have been NO pops that I recall (certainly no more that 1 or 2)
base has TF and HF, therefore the Terraforming ED = 0
-base is currently producing 24 mins with ED=0; formula says ED=22.8
-base max mins = 36 with ED=0; formula says ED=57
-base could presumably produce even more mins without ED.

I'm pretty sure (he says hopefully) that I crunched the numbers OK, according to the formula discussed earlier in this thread - counting all the techs, but not making any of the proposed alterations toward the end of the thread. I saved a copy of the game file; if anyone wants to slog through all the calculations for themselves, I'll email it.

There is at least one other explanation for this apparent discrepancy: that the number of pops is greatly in excess of what it seems to be, either because we aren't notified about all of them or it counts everyones' pops, not just one's own or something like that. Of course, I don't really know for sure, but so far in the game I used above where I've got complete infiltration, there has been little ED at mine or the AI's bases and no nukes, gas or any atrocities that I know about.

Assuming that the current crop of evidence stands up, I think that the Scenario Editor based theories will turn out to be incorrect and that some of the hitherto disgraced notions of faction-wide elements such as the total number of HFs, TFs and/or other GoodFacs will be rehabilitated.

[Fitz]

I agree jon, it does indeed look like the old theory of faction wide attributes, due to some process behind the scenes, is a possibility. The fact that the SMAC programmers might have ****ed up the eco-damage never occurred to me. I should have known better.

[Blake]

I wouldn't call it fu*king up the ED, I think more likely they did it correctely but never bothered to update the ED formula. Or atleast neglected some important details.

One more thing I forgot to mention, number of atrocities is VERY important. The exact importance of minor atrocities is yet to be determined, ditto for repeal UN charter. Also military history (are some of those bases captured?)

Jon, please email me that file to
bmw40@student.canterbury.ac.nz

I can't deny the ED formula is tricky, it is very easy to get a wrong final value for ED. In fact I've never even tried to calculate actual ED, most of my "research" has been towards finding the factors towards the clean mineral limit. My advice is don't even bother trying to calculate the actual ED.

I've got a few other ideas, prehaps you don't get the full value of treefarms unless you have one in EVERY base, ie the clean mineral increase is of the form #TF * #TF/#Bases, so you have to be enviromentally responsible globally in order to get the full global effect.

Prehaps I should skip all my lectures today to run a few tests. Lol. Prehaps not

[Ned]

Well! The Pholus Mutagen has no effect on "clean" minerals. Actually, I seem to see no effect at all. Perhaps this SP is subject to a senario editor test? It may add to the divisor in step 8 of the "formula," or it may increase one's effective planet rating. I have not idea.

Ned

[Blake]

Ned, I've already determined the effect of the Pholus Mutagen and the other ED reducing SP, they add one to GOODFACS. This effect applies in all bases, not just the Mutagen base.

[Fitz]

I assume, when you say adds to all bases, that you are saying this is true because it is an SP. The other goodfacs only apply to specific bases right? Or is that issue in the air again with this new info about TF/HF?

[Ned]

I have independently verified that at least the "construction" of Centauri Preserves, Tree Farms and Hybrid Forests adds one per to the "clean" minerals of a faction good at all bases. In addition, the "possession" of Centauri Meditation, however one comes by that "possession," adds two such clean minerals. What I have not determined is whether capturing or otherwise acquiring a base with one of these "good" facilities has the same effect.

In addition, CP's, Temples and Nanoreplicators of a given base are part of the "formula" for caclulating ED for that base. The Pholus apparently operates as an additional "Good" facility in this calculation.

[Fitz]

So let me see if I have this straight. The formula works as advertised, if one change is made. Step five currently reads:

5) Divide this value by 8, and reduce by up to 16 plus # of previous
damages. Set this number aside.

But step five should read:

5) Divide this value by 8, and reduce by up to 16 plus # of previous
damages plus # of Tree Farms, Hybrid Forests, and Centauri Preserves constructed in all bases, plus 2 times # of Centauri Technologies. Set this number aside.

Notes/Questions:

1) Could you also verify at some point if the first part of my added text should also include the facilities Nanohospital and Temple of Planet?

2) Is it correct to say Centauri Technologies, Green Technologies, or Centauri Meditation?

3) Should line 8 (divide by 1 + # of Centauri Preserve, Temple of Planet and Nanohospital in this base (added text)) also include Pholtus Mutagen?
[This message has been edited by Fitz (edited May 03, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Fitz (edited May 03, 2001).]

[johndmuller]

Fitz, I think that it is step 7 that Ned's adjustment would apply to rather than step 5. Step 5 is the final figure for the terraforming component whereas I think we are working with the mineral component. I think Ned's adjustment is equivalent to having one or more "pops" for each of the facilities we are talking about.
[This message has been edited by johndmuller (edited May 03, 2001).]

[Blake]

[quote
So let me see if I have this straight. The formula works as advertised, if one change is made. Step five currently reads:

5) Divide this value by 8, and reduce by up to 16 plus # of previous
damages. Set this number aside.

But step five should read:

5) Divide this value by 8, and reduce by up to 16 plus # of previous
damages plus # of Tree Farms, Hybrid Forests, and Centauri Preserves constructed in all bases, plus 2 times # of Centauri Technologies. Set this number aside.

[/quote]

Actually, I'm fairly sure that Centauri Empathy and Centauri Ecology don't add 2 to clean limit. Also I havn't observed the effect of Cent.Meditation adding 2, but I WILL test it very soon.

quote: Notes/Questions: 1) Could you also verify at some point if the first part of my added text should also include the facilities Nanohospital and Temple of Planet? 2) Is it correct to say Centauri Technologies, Green Technologies, or Centauri Meditation?

That really depends if Cent.Genetics, Cent.Psi has an effect... I'll try to test that.

quote: 3) Should line 8 (divide by 1 + # of Centauri Preserve, Temple of Planet and Nanohospital in this base (added text)) also include Pholtus Mutagen?

Yes, and also the singularity inductor (the one which gives each base a free quantum converter and reduces the impact of industry)

Also atrocity induced eco-damage is reduced by GOODFAC's, while the formula states it isn't. That means step 8 and 9 need to be rearranged. The formula is correct in that terraforming ED is not reduced by GOODFAC's.

So actually the formula doesn't really work as advertised, altough AFAIK no line is actually missing, just some things need to be tabbed on, for example damages term includes TF's and CP's, GOODFAC's include the Pholus mutagen, Line 8 and 9 need to be rearranged slightly.

The principles in the formula are correct, but the details aren't. This suggests that the changes were made very late testing stage, as people played games to completion and it was realised wormrape could be a real killer.

And I agree that once this is done Vel needs to add a new chapter to his guide on how to deal with ecodamage, my game improved simply by understanding that #damages includes # of pops, by strategic popping clean mineral limit could be increased very early.

[Fitz]

Johnd, as far as I can see, step 5 & 7 are the same #, but step 7 just takes whatever is left over and applies it to minerals. That's assuming that the formula takes the steps in the advertised order. Of course, I don't know how often the total (improvements damage/8 + special damage), divided by TF/HF, actually exceeds 16 points in the first place, so I couldn't confirm or deny that my assumption is correct.

[Fitz]

Fine, so currently, we are looking at this for the total expression (with added text in bold):

1)For each base total the number of Mines, Solar Collectors, Farms, Soil Enrichers, Roads, Mag Tubes, Condensers, Mirrors and Boreholes.
Items in squares which are actually being worked count double.

2)Add an extra +8 for each Borehole, +6 for each Mirror, and +4 for each Condenser.

3)Subract 1 for each Forest.

4)Halve if base has Tree Farm, and Eliminate if also has Hybrid Forest.

5) Divide this value by 8, and reduce by up to 16 plus # of previous
damages (fungus pops) plus # of Tree Farms, Hybrid Forests, Centauri Preserves, and Temples of Planet constructed in all bases since the very first fungus pop. Set this number aside. If step 4 is negative, divide it by 8 and do not reduce by anything. If step 4 is not negative, do not reduce below zero.

6) Take the number of minerals produced this turn (but not from Orbit, but do include bonus minerals generated by multiplying Orbital minerals by a facility).

7)If result from 5 was reduced by less than 16+#s, reduce result 6
by remaining amount.

8) Divide value of step 7 by 1 plus 1 for each facility out of Centauri Preserve, Temple of Planet, Nanoreplicator contained in this base, plus 1 each for Pholtus Mutagen and Singularity Inductor Secret Projects if your faction possesses them.

9) Sum the values of (5) and (8), and add +5 for each major atrocity.

10) If Alpha Prime is at perihelion (20 years out of every 80), double
your value.

Ecology% = (ValueFromStep10) * Difficulty * Technologies * (3-PLANET) * LIFE / 300

Difficulty = Normally 3, but 5 on two highest two difficulty levels.
Technologies = Number of technologies discovered
PLANET = Social Engineering PLANET value, to a maximum value of 2
LIFE = Native life level (1-3) from Custom Start

-Fitz

Edit: Step five has had the Centuri Meditation tech removed in response to Ned's comment below. In addition, I'm trying to think how to reword this to make it clearer, and express as a formula in the prima fashion once we're sure we have it.

Edit2: Step 8 & 9 back in original order (for now). Added Blake's condition that pop must occur for TF/HF/CP/ToP damage reduction to count.

Edit3: Edited out note now that we have confirmation that Nanoreplicators do not add to clean minerals, but only reduce eco damage to a fraction.

Edit4: Edited to reflect possible negative (-) terraforming due to forests. Have not yet edited to move terraforming factor under the goodfacs division.

[This message has been edited by Fitz (edited May 04, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Fitz (edited May 08, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Fitz (edited May 09, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Fitz (edited May 09, 2001).]

[johndmuller]

Fitz, good idea to copy the formula to this page.

But...
Blake, Fitz, I'm pretty sure that step 5 is NOT the place; in the analysis I've been doing, my step 5 value is already zero (from having both HF & TF in the base) so subtracting wouldn't do the trick (going negative would work in the right direction (assuming negative is allowed) but I think it would give a heavier weight than modifying the minerals half of the formula.

Remember, the end of step 5 says "Set this number aside."

That aside would be so that step 7 (which is where I think Ned's adjustment should go) can be divided by the GoodFacs; in your scheme the adjustment doesn't get divided by the GoodFacs.

I noticed you also moved step 9 in front of step 8 ; that would indeed make it moot where you made the adjustment, but in normal numeric order it does make a difference.

I don't know why I'm speaking for Ned here, but since I am, Ned says "Get that new stuff the out of Step 5 and subtract it from step 7; if you can't handle step 7 for some reason, subtract it from step 6 instead."

I am assuming that the "#s" in step 7 is the total number of "pops". Do we believe that is just for the one faction?

[Blake]

John, thanks for the file.

The clean mineral limit was 72 exactly. (I tested this by mainly placing heaps of boreholes in the base radius, the borehole ED is moot because of TF+HF)

16
24 TF's
8 HF's
22 CP's

adds up to 70 exactly. This is 2 out.

Technologies included all cent. techs up to and including Cent Psi. As a test I used the editor to remove those techs, and the clean mineral limit stayed the same.

The Centuari tech thing is easy enough to prove, only requiring a save one turn before getting CentMed, Genetics, Psi etc.

Unfortunately none of these values have been EXACTLY right, this could be easily put down to rounding during the calculation process, however evidence seems to suggest you will always have a clean mineral limit atleast as high as 16 + #TF + #HF + #CP , that is assuming terraforming and atrocity ecodamage is not an issue.