Base Size and Pollution

[Fitz]

Okay, Ned, I calculated what the eco-damage should be for the test above, using the following formula:

Eco-Damage = Damage*Life*Planet*Diff*Techs/100

where:
Life = 2
Planet = 3
Diff = 5
Techs = 128

Damage = (Terraforming - CleanMins1) + (Minerals - CleanMins2)/Goodfacs
Cleanmins2 = Cleanmins - Cleanmins1

Reverse engineering the value 64 in the formula allowed me to calculate that the techs value had to be 128.

Here are the calculated results, when I truncate the Terrafoming value before sticking it into the formula:

	RawMins	NoFACS	CP	TP	TP&CP	NR	NR&TP	PM	SI	PM&SI
NoWorkers	1	76.8	64	64	64	64	64	64	64	64
Condensor	2	89.6	76.8	76.8	64	76.8	76.8	76.8	76.8	76.8
BoreHole	7	153.6	102.4	102.4	89.6	128	102.4	102.4	128	102.4

Here is your original table:

	RawMins	NoFACS	CP	TP	TP&CP	NR	NR&TP	PM	SI	PM&SI
NoWorkers	1	77	64	64	64	64	64	64	64	64
Condensor	2	89	77	77	77	64	77	77	77	77
BoreHole	7	153	102	102	89	128	102	102	128	102

Points of interest:

1) You appear to have switched the values in the Condensor Row for the TP&CP and NR values.

2) Terraforming is obviously not divided by Goodfacs. If it was, the value for the NoWorkers row would decrease below 64 in yhr TP&CP row. I ran a few values and they didn't match.

3) Goodfacs obviously does NOT add to CleanMins, or subtract from terraforming or minerals. In addition to noting that my calculated values match when I don't use a formula with Goodfacs in the top, I ran a few values through and found that it didn't match. You must have been observing a rounding/truncate situation as I previously described when you thought you had an increase in cleanmins. Remeber. If you end up with a value of 1.25, and it is divided tby 2 for a CP to .75 and then truncated/rounded to 0, you appear to have added two clean minerals, but have only added one to the Cleanmins value in the formula.

Barring moving the Atrocities under the goodfacs division, we are obviously back with:

Damage = (Terraforming - CleanMins1) + (Minerals - CleanMins2)/Goodfacs + 5*Atrocities

Cleanmins2 = Cleanmins - Cleanmins1

Cleanmins = (16) + (# fungal blooms) + (# of Hybrid Forests, Tree Farms, Centauri Preserves, and Temple of Planets constructed by your faction, provided at least one fungal bloom has occured)

Goodfacs = (1) + (# of Centauri Preserves, Temple of Planet, Nanoreplicators in this base) + (# of Pholtus Mutagen + Singularity Inducator Secret projects owned by your faction)

I won't reconstruct the Terraforming fomula again, and I can't remember anymore if we need to include Nanoreplicators and the SPs in the Clean minerals line if they are constructed (as opposed to just existing). I also can't remember it only counts ones constructed after your first fungal bloom, or counts the ones you constructed before the fungal bloom but only after it occurs. My formula says the latter right now.

[Ned]

Fitz, Your calculated numbers appear to match the observed data closely, although I don't believe I had 128 techs. I believe I had just 88.

But I don't see how you can get to your numbers from your formula. It would be interesting to see examples of your calculations.

I am assumng that both Terraforming (there is a .375 adder for placing a worker on a condensor, farm, road) and Clean Minerals remains 21 and 16 respectively in all calculations. Ditto the "adjustments" to net Damage.

The results seem to show, and you and I agree on this, that Terraforming damage remains a constant 64, which is 21-16=5*Ajustments. This also means that each effective mineral contributes 12.8 to ED.

What I see is that there does appear to be a subtraction from Minerals due to each GoodFACs.

What I also see is that the first two net minerals, after this subtraction, contribute 12.8 ED, and net minerals above that are divided by 1-GoodFACs.

Again, I don't understand how one can get to your calculated results using your formula.

Ned

[Misotu]

Wow, are you guys still going on this? Now that's dedication for you

Unfortunately, I'm not able to follow most of it. But I'm just posting to say thank you anyhow. Because the one thing I did understand is that "good" facilities built after an eco-damage-related fungal pop will increase the number of clean minerals that can be produced per base. Tried it in a recent game, and it worked like a dream. I probably haven't been paying attention, I don't suppose this is new to the old hands here. But it was new to me. So thanks.

[Ned]

Misotu, You're welcome.

As to the state of knowledge of members of this forum as to much of this thread, I think that it was not widely known, if at all. Others apparently noticed the different ED damage limits depending on number of bases, but didn't know why. Some thought the increased resistance to ED as the game went on was due to researching more tech's, even though the opposite is the case. I too was extremely confused by the disparity between what I was seeing and the Datalinks formula.

The information we have gathered here will allow the player who knows the information to dominate a player who does not. This is why it is puzzling that the information was not included in the Datalinks in the first place.

Ned

[Blake]

Well, after 2(3? 4?, lost count...) weeks of not being able to access apolyton (I really don't know why) it finally starts working again, probably due to the forum upgrade (how long ago did that happen)?

Damn, I was just about over my SMAC addiction too being deprived of apolyton seems to make it easier to resist playing SMAC. Unfortunately I seem to have a new found Black & White addiction (and B&W web forums), so now I can access Apolyton again I guess I'll get my old SMAC addiction back. Addiction to SMAC and B&W. And just in time for exams. Just what I need.

Anyway, this was the first thread I checked . Great to see it is still going, I quickly read over most of the posts... don't suppose anyone could give a concise summary of additional findings?

And have the findings in this thread actually been put somewhere accessable yet? The really important need to know - undocumented things are:

Each TF's, HF's, CP's, ToP's built increases clean minerals by 1...
But only after atleast 1 fungal "pop" has happened....

Also such facilities can offset planetbuster induced ED, 5 "ED friendly facilities" cancel the negative effect of 1 planetbuster use...

Well, someone with better writing skills could write those main points for the benefit of the masses which don't want to wade throught a ton of complicated posts on the last un-accounted for factors in the ED formula.

And SOMETHING concerning ED needs to go in Vel's strat guide, even just a single paragraph.

[Ned]

Blake, Welcome back!

If you go back a few posts, you will see a test that Fitz and I set up, and data from that test. We are now debating what the results mean.

In a nutshell, the test was a size 1 base with one worker. It had a net 21 terraforming damage so that the result of step 5 for all variations was essentially a constant 21-16=5. I then measured ED with no workers, a worker on a 1 minerals tile, and a worker on a six mneral borehole. Although terraforming damage varied slightly, what really was changing was the the number of Minerals, being 1, 2 and 7 respectively.

I then repeated the experiment by adding a GoodFAC or GoodSP by the SE - either alone or in combination - and took measurements. I reported the results in a table, swapping as Fitz noted, the results for NR with TP and CP in the first two columns.

Fitz and I are now heavily debating what the results mean. You input in this debate is more than welcome.

Rather than repeat the debate, you may want to read the data and our posts since the table was posted.

If you go back further, though, you will see my conclusions on terraforming damage caused by Kelp and a sea base. It is really different from anything else. This data should also be verified and reported.

[DilithiumDad]

You are right about the Tree Farms and Hybrids adding one to clean minerals after the first fungal pop. BUT your formula is incorrect about each fungal pop raising mineral limit by 1.

I have a single-player game as Believers on a high-fungus map. Very challenging, I might add. I had 16 clean minerals per base before Hercules went into periphelion, then that dropped to 12. Since I had all forest, I had to go way into massive eco-damage unless I wanted mass starvation. I had 4 fungal pops the first turn after perihelion began, and clean minerals stayed at 12. A tree-farm building campaign (made difficult by the low mineral lmit) gradually raised the clean mineral limit. Going Free Market (-4 panet!) lowered mineral limit back down to 12.



Anyway, allowing fungal pops is NOT a good strategy for limiting ecodamage.

[Ned]

Hey Dilithium Dad, I think you are equating the ED limit with clean minerals. Remember, that until a base has both a TF and an HF, that Terraforming damage subtracts from Clean Minerals.

However, what you said is interesting. Even if you are looking at the ED limit, it sees to vary depending on whether AC is in Perihelion. This indicates that TD is scaled by Perihelion before it subtracts from Clean Minerals.

As to pops not affecting Clean Minerals, I believe they do. Blake, what have you confirmed on this?

Ned

[Blake]

Originally posted by Ned

As to pops not affecting Clean Minerals, I believe they do. Blake, what have you confirmed on this?

Pops most definitly effect clean minerals. The first pop also counts, so after the first pop you have a clean mineral limit of 17.

[Velociryx]

Just to clarify this in my own mind...the way this stuff works is:

1) Each fungal "pop" increases the clean mineral threshold at ALL your bases (including ones not yet founded) by one per.

2) Each tf, hf, cp, top you build increases your clean mineral threshold by one (for the base it is built in, or has the research show it to be for ALL your bases?) per facility built.

3) The more fungal pops + more eco-friendly facilities you build, the greater your "innoculation" to ED becomes....ballpark the effect at 5 eco-happy facs = 1PB

Izzat about the crux of it?
-=Vel=-

[Ned]

Vel, Yes and more. The effect adding to clearn minerals is faction wide and permanent. Subsequent events do not lower clean minerals. So each pop you have, each tf, hf, cp or top you build, not capture, adds to clean minerals. [From a strategy point of view, it might be wise to build one or more TF, HF, CP or ToP in a captured base before giving it to a submissive.]

IN ADDITION, we have found that the presence of GoodFACs, e.g., CP, TP, NR, in a city, and either the Pholos M or Sing. Induct. in a faction, also effectively gives one more clean mineral per. This effect depends on the presence of the facility in the base or the SP in the faction. The effect is not permanent. It does not add to clean minerals.

These are the major findings.

Minor findings include that a "negative" Terraforming damage caused by the presence of trees also increases the effective clean minerals.

Kelp and a Sea Base add 1 per tile to terraforming damage, but not an extra 1 when worked.

The first two minerals a base produces above the number of clean minerals are treated differently from the rest. They are neither multiplied by factories, or divided by the 1 + GoodFACs factor.

Ned

[Fitz]

Originally posted by Ned
IN ADDITION, we have found that the presence of GoodFACs, e.g., CP, TP, NR, in a city, and either the Pholos M or Sing. Induct. in a faction, also effectively gives one more clean mineral per. This effect depends on the presence of the facility in the base or the SP in the faction. The effect is not permanent. It does not add to clean minerals.

The first two minerals a base produces above the number of clean minerals are treated differently from the rest. They are neither multiplied by factories, or divided by the 1 + GoodFACs factor.

I'm still willing to debate these points.

Anyhow, here's how I calculated the eco-damage:

Eco-Damage = Damage*Life*Planet*Diff*Techs/100

where:
Life = 2
Planet = 3
Diff = 5
Techs = 128

so Eco-Damage = Damage*Tech*30/10 = Damage*Techs/10

Damage = (Terraforming - CleanMins1) + (Minerals - CleanMins2)/Goodfacs
Cleanmins2 = Cleanmins - Cleanmins1

Terraforming damage: = 21 for no workers, 21 and 1/4 for Condensor/Borehole situations. Truncate to 21 in all situations.

Cleanmins1 = 16, and 21-16 = 5.

Minererals = 1, 1.5 for NR/SI, 2 for Condensor, 3 for NR/SI, 7 for Borehole, 12.5 with NR or SI.

Cleanmins2 = 0 (since 16 -16 =0)

1+Goodfacs varies by column.

Add any good fac, amd we have 64 = (5+1/2)*Techs/300 = 5/300*Techs (truncate 5&1/2 to 5)
Therefore Techs = 128

To double check this, with nothing we have (5+1/1)*Techs/10 = 6*128/10 = 76.8

Similar calucalations based on (terraforming + mins/(1+goodfacs))*Techs/10 or alternately [b](terraforming + mins/(1+goodfacs))*128/10 will produce the other numbers in the condesor and borhole rows, provided you remember to truncate the [terrformiing - (mins/(1+goodfacs))] portion before you multiply by 128/10 (12.8).



Thus, there is no need to include in your calcuation the 1+goodfacs in the top. In fact, lets try that with just a CP, no workers (row 1 column 1):

(4 + 1/2)*128/10 = 4*128/10 = 51.2

No TP&CP = (3 + 1/3)*128/10 = 3*128/10 = 38.6

Now this obviously doesn't match the observed values for the Noworker CP or TP&CP rows.

And now I gotta go watch a soccer game. I'll come back later and use the 88 Techs figure and see what happens when I don't truncate, round, only do it in certain places, etc.

Eidt: inserted formula at top for conciseness

[Blake]

I really can't understate the importance of the fact that atleast one pop must happen before getting any clean mineral benefit from building TF's etc. Because if a player plays extreme green, and builds 50 TF's etc, then expects to be able to boost his mineral production, he'll get a nasty suprise when it is still at 16.

The good thing is only one pop is required. You need never create any more ED after that, but you may want to anyway because each pop increases clean minerals by 1, this is more valuable in blind research games where you may lack TF's, CP's, it's also cheaper, because you don't need to build anything, and you get the planetpearls from killing worms. Win-win.

Also clean mineral threshold is strictly across faction, a pop counts for the faction it occured in only. A tree farm counts only for the faction it is built in, terraforming ED and rounding(?) effects from GOODFAC's aside clean mineral threshold should be exactly the same in all bases across faction.

The other slightly less important thing is that you get clean mineral boost strictly from building. not owning tree farms etc. As Ned pointed out you can build tree farms in captured bases then give the base to a submissive, you can also buy/scrap CP's in bored bases to increase your clean mineral limit, atleast a use for CP's .

Finally, if I understand Fitz correctely the +1 clean minerals in bases with a CP is technically a rounding error. And also as you get up to a clean mineral threshold of about 100 each TF, CP etc is worth slightly more than 1, it is not clear whether this is a rounding error or another unidentified factor.

Anyway the really important stuff, with pratical applications, which wasn't said in Vel's post, and every player should know:
Must have one fungal pop (in faction) before being able to increase clean mineral threshold.
The clean mineral benefit from TF's, CP's etc comes strictly from building, not owning said facilties.
Various rounding errors can result in a higer clean mineral limit than the statistics suggest.

The last item should probably be included to prevent posts from people claiming they have "discovered" a bug where you get a higer clean mineral threshold


I don't think there is really anything more to say about Ecodamage, the contributing factors behind ED are now generally well defined. I have no wish to attempt to account for the anomalies at very high mineral bases, I'm content to say you will always get ATLEAST the clean mineral limit calculated by the new formula(s). Others are welcome to continue the quest for the final formula, but I'm going to try and find something to do with my time which is more conductive to passing my exams.

[Ned]

Fitz, Thanks. And, I agree with your calucalation. Here is a "full" table showing each step in the calculation:

	RawMins	NoFACS	CP	TP	TP&CP	NR	NR&TP	PM	SI	PM&SI
No Workers	1	77	64	64	64	64	64	64	64	64
Condensor	2	89	77	77	64	77	77	77	77	77
BoreHole	7	153	102	102	89	128	102	102	128	102
										
Subtract 64 and divide by 12.8										
Adj.		1	1	1	1.5	1.5	1	1.5	1.5
# of GdFAC			1	1	2	1	2	1	1	2
No Workers		1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Condensor		2	1	1	0	1	1	1	1	1
BoreHole		7	3	3	2	5	3	3	5	3
										
										
No Workers	Adjusted	1	1.0	1.0	1.0	1.5	1.5	1.0	1.5	1.5
Condensor	Minerals	2	2.0	2.0	2.0	3.0	3.0	2.0	3.0	3.0
BoreHole		7	7.0	7.0	7.0	10.5	10.5	7.0	10.5	10.5
										
No Workers	Adj. Min	1 	1/2 	1/2 	1/3 	3/4 	1/2 	1/2 	3/4 	1/2 
Condensor	divided by	2 	1 	1 	2/3 	1 1/2 	1 	1 	1 1/2 	1 
BoreHole	(1+GdFAC)	7 	3 1/2 	3 1/2 	2 1/3 	5 1/4 	3 1/2 	3 1/2 	5 1/4 	3 1/2 
										
No Workers	Truncated	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Condensor		2	1	1	0	1	1	1	1	1
BoreHole		7	3	3	2	5	3	3	5	3

Dan Q has given us permission to summarize our results for a main page post.

Fitz, Blake, I suggest that we confine our remarks to the new information on Clean Minerals and GoodFACs - with the one exception for the effect of Kelp on Terraforming damage.

What do you think?

Ned

[Ned]

Guys, What about this:

Eco-Damage Formula Revised - Have you ever wondered why the number of minerals a base could produce seemed to rise as the game went on or was greater the more bases you had? There is a good reason for this, but it is not explained in either the Datalinks or the manuals. Ned, Blake and Fitz have discovered that the number of "clean minerals" the game allows rises from an initial 16, as set forth in the Datalinks formula, each time you "build" a Tree Farm, a Hybrid Forest, a Centauri Preserve or a Temple of the Planet. This increanse in base "clean minerals" only seems to begin after the first pop. (Pops also increase "clean minerals," but this information is already set forth in the Datalinks formula.) So each time you build one of these facilities anywhere in your faction, you increase your faction's "clean mineral" limit and thereby the number of minerals you could produce without eco-damage.

Ned, Blake and Fitz also report that acquiring bases with these facilities does not affect the number of "clean minerals." Neither does losing a base or selling the facilities. It is building them that is important.

Ned