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Thanks Aredhran! You got the ball in motion! I'm thrilled.
I understand the reasons for the rules, and for letting each person play the same faction, and all the other special customizations made to the game for the purposes of this challenge. I'm curious who will win, and it's exciting for the fight to have begun. However, I've been wondering if a slightly different challenge might also be interesting.
I'm the kind of guy who likes to pick "random" on the faction selection screen. It adds to the fun, for me, to have to make the best of whatever faction I get stuck with. This is half of my reason for wanting to see vel and zso fight under random conditions; with random factions and random starting locations, and may the best man win. The other half is that, without other factions in the game, and with a pre-designed, fair map, they're not really playing SMAC. They're playing something very close to SMAC, true, but not SMAC. The imbalances and unfairnesses are all part of the game, and they're a part of the game that I savor. Likewise, I'm not crazy about removing the other win conditions. It makes the game less interesting; if the players have to worry about the opponent trying to snag an early, cheap victory, they are actually playing SMAC. If not, they're playing a SMAC with training wheels. I understand that Builders like to play as if there's no other way to play the game, but by removing all the other elements from the game, somthing gets lost, a certain paranoia that's integral to "real" SMAC. All the current restrictions do is make it easier to play as a Builder. In true SMAC, being a Builder is something that requires strategy and care; in this set-up, it's a breeze. Of course, that's fine, it's fine to have specialized conditions, it's kind of interesting to make variations on the game and see who does the best under them. "Who would be the best Builder in a Builder-optimized scenario" is a valid question in its own right, and essentially what the Dominus Transcendi challenge is all about.
However: the way I had pictured the challenge was more along the lines of "What if Vel and zsozso, having never heard of each other before, happened to hook up for a multiplayer game?" They'd have to deal with all the other factions, they would have to either accept a random faction or argue over who got what faction, and they'd (probably) play with all the win conditions enabled, but each would privately be hoping to win by transcendence. That's the game I was interested in seeing. In other words, an Ultima Dominus Transcendi:
--either randomly assigned factions for vel and zso (which I think would be more interesting), or pre-agreed, different factions for each player.
--seven factions are in the game; in other words, they're playing actual SMAC.
--winner will be winner by transcendence, but a draw can be forced by another player nabbing one of the other win conditions before transcendence happens.
--obviously, there are no restricions like "limited military engagement"; the only rules of conduct are ones of personal honor, such as not doing really slimy city-trades with the AI, which I doubt either vel or zsozso would do.
--large or huge map, average life forms, average cloud cover, average erosive forces.
--look first, no blind research, spoils off, stagnation off.
--Survey on or off, up to players.
--random events also up to players.
--this is implied by the other rules, but I thought I'd make it explicit: it is perfectly fair to build a strong military to destroy one's opponent. The purpose of the challenge is to see who can win a transcendence victory under actual SMAC conditions, and that includes the condition of having a hostile military opponent. All victory conditions will be enabled, but transcendence will be regarded as a "true" victory, and all others as a "draw," because, under the imaginary scenario of vel and zsozso meeting each other on-line and starting a game, that's probably how they'd each privately feel.
I'm sure people's objections to this are going to be along the lines of, "But it won't be fair!" What if one person randomly gets Miriam? What if someone starts on a tiny island? It won't be fair! My reply is, yes, it won't be fair. Exactly. A real game of SMAC would not be fair. To coin a phrase, he true grit comes out when the s**t hits the fan.
While the Dominus Transcendi Challenge can be paraphrased as "Who's the best Builder under Builder-optimized conditions?", the Ultima Dominus Transcendi Challenge is more like "Who's the best Builder under actual SMAC conditions?"
Now, I'm very interested in the current Dominus Transcendi Challenge (and I also apologize for the probably-horrible latin of "Ultima", but I don't know no better), and thanks to Aredhran for setting it up. It's cool and exciting for it to finally be happening, and I'm dying to know the turn results. I just hope that the two giants, when they're done slugging it out on a level playing field, will have anough stamina left for a real game of SMAC...
I understand the reasons for the rules, and for letting each person play the same faction, and all the other special customizations made to the game for the purposes of this challenge. I'm curious who will win, and it's exciting for the fight to have begun. However, I've been wondering if a slightly different challenge might also be interesting.
I'm the kind of guy who likes to pick "random" on the faction selection screen. It adds to the fun, for me, to have to make the best of whatever faction I get stuck with. This is half of my reason for wanting to see vel and zso fight under random conditions; with random factions and random starting locations, and may the best man win. The other half is that, without other factions in the game, and with a pre-designed, fair map, they're not really playing SMAC. They're playing something very close to SMAC, true, but not SMAC. The imbalances and unfairnesses are all part of the game, and they're a part of the game that I savor. Likewise, I'm not crazy about removing the other win conditions. It makes the game less interesting; if the players have to worry about the opponent trying to snag an early, cheap victory, they are actually playing SMAC. If not, they're playing a SMAC with training wheels. I understand that Builders like to play as if there's no other way to play the game, but by removing all the other elements from the game, somthing gets lost, a certain paranoia that's integral to "real" SMAC. All the current restrictions do is make it easier to play as a Builder. In true SMAC, being a Builder is something that requires strategy and care; in this set-up, it's a breeze. Of course, that's fine, it's fine to have specialized conditions, it's kind of interesting to make variations on the game and see who does the best under them. "Who would be the best Builder in a Builder-optimized scenario" is a valid question in its own right, and essentially what the Dominus Transcendi challenge is all about.
However: the way I had pictured the challenge was more along the lines of "What if Vel and zsozso, having never heard of each other before, happened to hook up for a multiplayer game?" They'd have to deal with all the other factions, they would have to either accept a random faction or argue over who got what faction, and they'd (probably) play with all the win conditions enabled, but each would privately be hoping to win by transcendence. That's the game I was interested in seeing. In other words, an Ultima Dominus Transcendi:
--either randomly assigned factions for vel and zso (which I think would be more interesting), or pre-agreed, different factions for each player.
--seven factions are in the game; in other words, they're playing actual SMAC.
--winner will be winner by transcendence, but a draw can be forced by another player nabbing one of the other win conditions before transcendence happens.
--obviously, there are no restricions like "limited military engagement"; the only rules of conduct are ones of personal honor, such as not doing really slimy city-trades with the AI, which I doubt either vel or zsozso would do.
--large or huge map, average life forms, average cloud cover, average erosive forces.
--look first, no blind research, spoils off, stagnation off.
--Survey on or off, up to players.
--random events also up to players.
--this is implied by the other rules, but I thought I'd make it explicit: it is perfectly fair to build a strong military to destroy one's opponent. The purpose of the challenge is to see who can win a transcendence victory under actual SMAC conditions, and that includes the condition of having a hostile military opponent. All victory conditions will be enabled, but transcendence will be regarded as a "true" victory, and all others as a "draw," because, under the imaginary scenario of vel and zsozso meeting each other on-line and starting a game, that's probably how they'd each privately feel.
I'm sure people's objections to this are going to be along the lines of, "But it won't be fair!" What if one person randomly gets Miriam? What if someone starts on a tiny island? It won't be fair! My reply is, yes, it won't be fair. Exactly. A real game of SMAC would not be fair. To coin a phrase, he true grit comes out when the s**t hits the fan.
While the Dominus Transcendi Challenge can be paraphrased as "Who's the best Builder under Builder-optimized conditions?", the Ultima Dominus Transcendi Challenge is more like "Who's the best Builder under actual SMAC conditions?"
Now, I'm very interested in the current Dominus Transcendi Challenge (and I also apologize for the probably-horrible latin of "Ultima", but I don't know no better), and thanks to Aredhran for setting it up. It's cool and exciting for it to finally be happening, and I'm dying to know the turn results. I just hope that the two giants, when they're done slugging it out on a level playing field, will have anough stamina left for a real game of SMAC...
I'm with Helium Pond on this set up.
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