Reducing your ecodamage

[Blake]

Well, I've managed to pretty much confirm the best way to keep ecodamage at 0 is to create ecodamage.

I checked the ecodamage formula carefully and ran some test games, and here is the end result:
Every fungal bloom caused by ecodamage allows you to have 1 more "clean" mineral in every base.

I was playing a game as Lal, intending to see just how high a population I could get, in light of my improved understanding of ecodamage I let some bases cause ecodamage. I was running FM so used arty to weaken the mind worms which attacked me. About 2200 (I had all restrictions lifted by 2150..) I had a base producing 31 minerals, with NO ecodamage, and not a cent preserve in sight. I didn't have centuari empathy. Normally by the time my bases were that developed the best I would manage without ecodamage is 20 minerals.

So the result is in the early game when worm attacks are small let your bases create a little ecodamage, let them attack you. This pays off big time.

So for all this time that I've been carefully keeping ecodamage at 0 in all bases all the time I've only been hurting my game. Annoyed I didn't pick up on during a year of playing, but pleased I'm still learning more about the game.

The simplified ecodamage formula for clean minerals per base:

Terraforming (main contributers only):
For each borehole add 8
condensor add 4
mirror add 6

divide total by 8

Halve if tree farm
Reduce to zero if hybrid forest.

Minerals
16 + # of previous fungal attacks

Clean minerals = Minerals - Terraforming

And there you have it. I'll try to get more precise values for terraforming ecodamage (and how it is different when being worked, the ecodamage formula is not specific enough), altough that would also make it less simple.

[Skanderbeg]

Blake!
That's a good idea to increase the number of "clean" minerals by controlled early game ecodamage.
I think I am doing this without intention in most of my games, because playing blind research, there is some time between industrial auto and tree farms, and in this time I always get some ecodamage.
Now, after the arguments Blake posted, it seems a good idea to get some controlled small ecodamage (around 10 I suppose) instead of reducing production to keep ecodamage low. And in earlier game the worm rapes are smaller and easier to controll than in later game.

[Fitz]

Important question:

Does teh previous damages mean per base, or does a fungal bloom at one base apply to them all?

BTW, thanks for clearing up what previous damages means. I've been trying to figure that out for a while.

[MariOne]

Wanted to ask the same as Fitz.
Plus, I was wondering if there might be difference between a mere fungus >pop<, or an actual worm attack...

[Gregurabi]

... and does a Fungal Bloom only increase the allowable minerals for your own faction, or does a Fungal Bloom in some other faction's territory count? (What about allies?)

[Blake]

AFAIK any tile of fungus which appears due to ecodamage reduces your ecodamage at every base. Regardless if worms appear or if it is associated with a >pop< story or not. Not sure if it also appiles for other players ecodamage.

Anyway, what I have figured why I used to be able to get about 20 clean minerals per base, rather than 16 is I would let the 3 "warning" blooms appear, and when worms attack for real I would clean up my act, and never create ecodamage again until hab domes. Which was bad, because by that stage rather than a couple of worms I'd get a dozen locusts.

[theohall]

Exact EcoDamage formula is located in the "Borehole Ecodamage" thread.

[Blake]

Theohall, that formula does indeed seem to be correct, except for how it considers enchancments (It's a per base thing), and ofcourse the planet bit, obviously the person who wrote that formula never played SMAC, and just deduced various properties from the formula itself. Stupid. It's exactly the same as the datalinks formula, just worded better, and a few extra incorrect details. It also ommits the strange properties of orbital minerals.

Unfortunately I don't know if other players damages count, I'll run a test when they bring back the 26 hour day hmmm. Prehaps if we slowed the rotation of the earth... what tech do you need for that?

Anyway, the (hopefully) 100% correct formula follows, which I have verified is correct for bases with tree farms + hybrid forest.

[Blake]

The (hopefully) 100% correct ecodamage formula:

DIFFiculty = 2 citizen; 3 specialist-librarian; 5 thinker/transcend

PLANET = SE Planet value
note: Any planet rating greater than +2 is considered to be +2 for ecodamage purposes

LIFE = Native life setting 1 sparse; 2 average; 3 abundant

TECH = Number of techs discovered

MINERALS = Minerals produced on Planet this turn, subtract the number of minerals produced DIRECTLY from space, which is either the # of mining stations, or base size, whichever is smaller.

PREVIOUS = # of times your(?) faction has been hit with Ecodamage

GOODFACS = 1 + (total number of Centauri Preserves, Temples of Planet, and Nanoreplicators you have in base)

ENHANCEMENTS = Total number of eco disruptive enhancement - mines, solar collectors, farms, soil enrichers, roads, mag tubes, condensors and boreholes. Count each working square twice (this also includes "working" a road). Count each Borehole 8 more times and each Condensor 4 more times. Subtract # of forests in that base's control.
Cut half the value if base has a Tree Farm and totally delete the value if the base has BOTH a Tree Farm and a Hybrid Forest.

Formula:

MODIFICATIONS = (ENHANCEMENTS/8) + (MINERALS/GOODFACS) + (Major Atrocities * 5) - 16 - PREVIOUS

Percentage chance for EcoDamage = MODIFICATIONS * DIFF * TECH * (3-Planet) * LIFE/300

-

Things still needing to be tested are atrocities, particullary minor and the effect other players ecodamage has on your own. Also the amount of ecodamage echlon mirrors cause, should be 6, between Borehole and Condensor if datalinks is correct.

edit: Oops, bad spelling. And I just noticed I've been upgraded to Warlord. Cool.
[This message has been edited by Blake (edited February 22, 2001).]

[MariOne]

Blake, I was trying to give a more conclusive look at this formual too.
Unfortuantely I barely have dtored developed single player games, and in PBEM you can't switch on Ctrl+K, leaving you less room for experimenting.
Putting up a scenario for the EcoDamage purpose would require more than a couple of bases, to test for cross-linked effects, and I don't have all that time on my hands (maybe it's easier to play a game then).

Anyway, I beg, let's see in what your formula differs from the Datalinks one, which although everyone has it in the game I paste here for easier reference:

---
The ecological damage formula is complex:
[list=1][*]For each base total the number of
Mines, Solar Collectors,
Farms, Soil Enrichers,
Roads, Mag Tubes,
Condensers, Mirrors and Boreholes.
Items in squares which are actually being worked count double.
[*]Add an extra
+8 for each Borehole,
+6 for each Mirror, and
+4 for each Condenser.
[*]Subtract 1 for each Forest.
[*]Halve if base has Tree Farm, and
Eliminate if also has Hybrid Forest.
[*]Divide this value by 8, and
reduce by up to 16 plus # of previous damages.
Set this number aside.
[*]Take the number of minerals produced this turn (but not from Orbit)
[*]If result from 5 was reduced by less than 16+#,
then reduce result 6 by remaining amount.
[*]Divide minerals by 1 plus # of
Centauri Preserve,
Temple of Planet,
Nanoreplicator.
[*]Sum the values of (5) and (8), and add +5 for each major atrocity.
[*]If Alpha Prime is at perihelion (20 years out of every 80), double your value.

Ecology % =

ValueFromStep10
* Technologies * (3-PLANET)
* Difficulty * LIFE / 300


Technologies = Number of technologies discovered
PLANET = Social Engineering PLANET value

Difficulty = Normally 3, but 5 on two highest two difficulty levels.
LIFE = Native life level (1-3) from Custom Start
---[/list=a]
(this is the EXACT datalinks wording, I only added linebreaks and formatting)
the last two factors are fixed in a game, and here are the possible values
Easy * Rare = 3/300 = 1/100
Hard * Rare = 5/300 = 1/ 60
Easy * Avg. = 6/300 = 1/ 50
Easy * Abd. = 9/300 = 3/100 (1/33)
Hard * Avg. = 10/300 = 1/ 30
Hard * Abd. = 15/300 = 1/ 20
---

DIFF - you state only 2 for Citizen, I assume you've tested it, I only played Citizen once (the first one) in my life.

PLANET - I was also wondering what could happen with Gaians-Green or Manifold-Green, supposedly your ED should me multiplied by 0. I never actually thought to check it when I was in the situation, as you're all so positive about it I assume you verified it firsthand.
Curiosity: Miriam running FM would have her -4 counted, or does it get trimmed to -3 anyway?

MINERALS - you say "Minerals produced on Planet" ????????
This would mean that not only the production from all your bases, but also from all the other factions get counted.
If you meant with that to express it as opposed to "from Orbit", you'd better reword that in a less misleading way (like "Minerals that base produces from the Planet's surface").
I'll have my tests sometimes, for now I would underline the possible semantic difference between minerals "collected" (workers/crawlers) and minerals "produced" (the mineral production of your base, the ones which actually go into your production box...).

PREVIOUS - so now you even have a doubt not only if that count has to be kept separate base per base, but also if there is a Global count

GOODFACS - there the grammar and property I should leave to you mothertongue literates, but I ask, how many Preserves can you have in one base?
I understand that way it sounds more fluent, but the datalinks wording, although awkward, seems more proper, and it would be a hint that you have to count the # of items in the 3-set in that base only.
OTOH, also Skanderbeg in the other thread quotes a specific experiment from him, giving opposite results to yours. It remains to see who got it right and who overlooked something.
---
Finally, let me underline an arithmetick nitpick

IF we give credit to the datalinks formula, what's left of the ED Bonus (16+#) after calculating TF ED, is applied to the Minerals BEFORE dividing by Goodfacs.
Thus, your Modifications formula is correct ONLY in the case of
(ENHANCEMENTS/8) >= (16+PREVIOUS)
where you could rewrite it
[ (ENHANCEMENTS/8) - (16+PREVIOUS) ] + (MINERALS/GOODFACS) + (Major Atrocities * 5)

INSTEAD, in the case that
(ENHANCEMENTS/8) < (16+PREVIOUS),
the contribution of TF ED in the first term (point 5.) would be reduced to 0, and you apply to the minerals what's left of the bonus. So:

[ MINERALS - (16+PREVIOUS - ENHANCEMENTS/8) ] / GOODFACS) + (Major Atrocities * 5)

This gives, if you want

(ENHANCEMENTS/8)/GOODFACS + MINERALS/GOODFACS - (16+PREVIOUS)/GOODFACS + 5*MajorAtrocities

Suppose you have:
ENHANCEMENTS = 48
GOODFACS = 2 (you built a Preserve)
PREVIOUS = 0
MINERALS = 20


Your foumula gives
48/8 + 20/2 - 16 = 0

The DataLinks algorythm gives
5. 6 - (up to 16) = 0
7. remaining amount form point 5 is 10, thus minerals = (20 - 10)
so
(Minerals-BonusLeft)/GoodFacs =
(20-10)/2 = 5
And THERE WOULD BE an ED your formula overlooked

Whether then the datalinks are incorrect and your easier and generalized formula applies, I leave to determine to the first who'll have time to control the figures....

[MariOne]

To help it read in a more comprehensive way, let's put

TF = Enhancements/8 (TerraForming)
Bonus = 16+Previous
MP = Mineral Production not from Orbit
GF = GoodFacs
MA = Major Atrocities
PH = PeriHelion: 1 if false, 2 if true (did anyone actually observe if its ED effect works?)

So

Modifications =
{
max(0;TF-Bonus) +
[ MP-max(0;Bonus-TF) ] /GF +
5*MA
}
*PH

(according to the datalinks)

[Blake]

Ah geez Marione, It's getting on midnight here and you post that massive long post

Looks like the main confusion came from Minerals. Don't know where the hell that planet bit can from. Purely a typo, prehaps from posting too late at night. I'm sorry for any confusion

Should read:
MINERALS = Minerals produced in base this turn, subtract the number of minerals produced DIRECTLY from orbit, which is either the # of mining stations, or base size, whichever is smaller.

Planet was tested, played gaians and morgan and tried +2 planet, +3 planet, +5 planet under identical circumstance, all same ecodamage.

DIFF NOT tested. I just assumed it was right. Definetely seems to be right for Transcend.

And ah crap, I had copied my modified formula from the prima guide post. Stupid. Stupid. Stupid. Your absolutely right. The datalinks is right (I think). The GOODFAc stuff should be calculated in the final %ecolony part, I think anyway. Again testing required.

Well, lucky I put a "hopefully" in the tital of my formula. Thanks for pointing out the errors. I'll take another look in the morning.

[Fitz]

quote: Originally posted by MariOne on 02-22-2001 05:18 AM [ MINERALS - (16+PREVIOUS - ENHANCEMENTS/8) ] / GOODFACS) + (Major Atrocities * 5) This gives, if you want (ENHANCEMENTS/8)/GOODFACS + MINERALS/GOODFACS - (16+PREVIOUS)/GOODFACS + 5*MajorAtrocities

Why do you want to complicate it by dividing out GOODFACS?

Just leave it in, it looks simplest to me:

[ENHANCEMENTS/8 + MINERALS - (16+PREVIOUS)]/GOODFACS + (MajorAtrocities*5)

Nice work catching needed rearrangement due to the reduction. I would also guess that the total before atrocities cannot become a negative number, but I could be wrong (ie - it could negate atrocity damage).

Also, I agree that the datalinks avoids the mistake the Prima guide makes for step 8. That's why I never assumed CentPreseerves to have an affect on all bases. I don't own the Prima Guide, so I had to read the datalinks to figure it out.

[Blake]

Okay, yet more weirdness. I ran multiple tests for terraforming and atrocity, and the effects of a preserve.

In a base with no terraforming, considerable mineral production, and lots of atrocity ecodamage building a preserve halves the ecodamage, as expected.

BUT, in a base with considerable terraforming ecodamage, preserves DO NOT halve the damame, in the extreme case going from 50 to 37, only a 25% reduction.

So testing suggests that the GOODFAC must be considered seperately for Terraforming and (Minerals + Atrocity}. Not sure if preserves have no effect on terraforming, or a reduced effect. Base square mineral possibly corrupting result. Maybe alter alphax.txt to have no base square minerals.

But anyway looks like we pretty much have the correct formula for ecodamage when terraforming is not considered, which is true post hybrid forest, or if terraforming is mostly forest.

[Fitz]

Doh. If you read the Datalinks formula carefully, Step 8 only applies to the total from steps 6 and 7. Therefore, CentPreserves and the like do not apply to terraforming damage. Good catch there Blake

Let me think a bit and see if I can edit this formula a bit:

[ENHANCEMENTS/8 - (16+PREVIOUS to a max = ENHANCEMENTS/8)] + [MINERALS - (remaining 16+PREVIOUS)]/GOODFACS + (MajorAtrocities*5)
[This message has been edited by Fitz (edited February 22, 2001).]