What's the formula for HURRY cost?

[ChrisShaffer]

Enigma, while it is usually optimal to upgrade an infantry-chassis Supply Crawler (by adding armour) and then cash it in towards a Secret Project (similar to Caravans in Civ), that isn't always the best solution.

First, there are times when the Supply Crawler is unavailable, either because you can't build them (pre-Industrial Automation) or because of the tactical situation.

Second, if you want to rush that last turn or two of the Secret Project - sometimes a Supply Crawler would provide too many minerals.

p.s. how often do you actually build Rover Supply Crawlers? That seems like a waste of time for a unit that will be sitting in one square most of the game.

[Adam_Smith]

quote: Originally posted by Mongoose on 04-19-2000 03:08 AM 5 x 2, 10 x 3, balance x 4 rubric.

Is this the formula? What if you need more than 25 minerals?

Here's another one. I haven't been able to record with more than 10 minerals so far.

R-Laser Penetrator
There is one bar complete. I don't know if that matters.

9/30 complete
hurry cost = 128
That is a little over 6 ec per mineral.

Trained R-Laser Penetrator
There is one bar complete.

9/36 complete
hurry cost = 180
That is also between 6 and 7 ec per mineral, but a little closer to 7.

It seems to me so far that the cost increases exponentially, but very slow. Unless you are building a prototype. Then the cost increases faster. It could be a function that is linear, but that increases faster at successive points like MOngoose's.

[Adam_Smith]

quote: Originally posted by Helium Pond on 04-18-2000 06:28 PM For units: If you don't have the first ten done, everything is twice as expensive, but after that, the costs are: -- the last 5 minerals are 2 per. -- the previous 10 (ie from half-way through the second to last row to half-way through the last row) are 3 per -- previous 10 again cost 4 each, etc. off.

This formula seems to fit with my observations except for prototype cruiser fungicidal former, and the first 3-res sentinel (and I could have made a bad record on that one).

[Mongoose]

The first one fits the model:

21 mins total, with 10 mins not yet reached-

first 5 at 2, next 10 at 3, last 6 at 4 = 64, doubled to 128.

The second one, is odd again. 27 mins. needed with 10 mins not yet reached.

Hmmm, maybe another level at 5 per...

first 5 at 2, next 10 at 3, next 10 at 4, last 2 at 5 = 90!! Doubled to 180. Could be it.

Were either of these examples at +4 INDUSTRY?

That one from above seems increasingly odd, and it was odd to begin with.

[Adam_Smith]

Mongoose,

I calculated them both the jets as fitting the formula. Also, I went and did the math for the prototype former and it also fits into the formula.

Yes, both the jets were with +4 INDUSTRY

[Frankie]

Okay, it looks like the only factor is the number of mineral boxes remaining (so your Industry SE is important). And if you've done less than 10 minerals of work so far, the cost is doubled.

quote: 3-res sentinal, less than 10 minerals so far, 18 minerals remaining = 104 hurry cost

first 5 minerals x2 = 10 cost
next 10 minerals x3 = 30 cost
last  3 minerals x4 = 12 cost
subtotal 52 doubled = 104 correct!

quote: cruiser fungicidal former (prototype), less than 10 minerals so far, 90 minerals remaining = 1170 hurry cost

first 5 x2 = 10
next 10 x3 = 30
next 10 x4 = 40
next 10 x5 = 50
next 10 x6 = 60
next 10 x7 = 70
next 10 x8 = 80
next 10 x9 = 90
next 10 x10 = 100
last 5 x11 = 55
subtotal 585 doubled = 1170 correct!

Hmm...what happens if you do a partial payment to complete 10 minerals, then hurry again? Secret savings, or does SMAC keep track?

Thanks much for the info, everyone. For the record, the Unit Hurry formula is NOT exponential, it's a polynomial algorithm with O(n^2).

[This message has been edited by Frankie (edited April 20, 2000).]

[Frankie]

Final word on the Unit Hurry Formula

Some quick fiddling with statistical software determined the following best fit curve:

H(x) = 2*x + (x^2)/20

where x is the number of minerals remaining. Remember to double the result if you're less than 10 complete.

[Adam_Smith]

x^2 is exponential

[Ned]

Is this right?

Objective: Build 300 mineral SP in one turn, no crawlers, lowest cost possible.

Start with 10 minerals. City makes 10 minerals per turn.

Pay $1120 for a city improvement. You now have 570 minerals.

Switch to SP. You now have 290 minerals. ((570-10)/2) The SP completes in the next turn.

Is this right. And is this the lowest cost?

[Adam_Smith]

quote: Originally posted by Ned on 04-19-2000 11:20 PM Pay $1120 for a city improvement. You now have 570 minerals.

Ned,

I don't think there are any city improvements that are that expensive. According to what has been said, I think the best thing to do would be to get the 10 minerals first. Then rush a faculity that will give you 20% of the minerals needed to complete your SP. Then switch to the Special Project. On the next turn rush the Project.

Of course if you are the drones just go with +4 industry and save money

[Enigma]

Most expensive facility is a Nanoreplicator- at 320 that is only 620 to rush it in.

When I say I use rover supply that is not for normal use... that is to artificially raise the mineral cost as high as possible. I prefer to keep my city queues as flexible as possible, that is one of my highest priorities when I am building an empire. To that means I build crawlers then upgrade them- meaning the incredible strain on a city's production is spread around your empire and the cost of building that SP is more evenly distributed. A rover supply costs like 60 and can be upgraded to 180 cost or something- saving that particular city 120 minerals of building time. Once you are able to get a good economy super bases that focus on industry are much less important.

[Enigma]

And exactly what are these formulas for? Frankie that formula does not come even close to fitting a recycling tanks with 30 remaining- facility hurry costs are very very simplistic. It costs 60 to complete 30 minerals in a recycling tanks after the first 10.

Somewhere in the datalinks I read SP's have a hurry cost of 4, units have a cost of 3, and facilities have a cost of 2. The unit formula seems much much more complex though..

[Adam_Smith]

Enigma,

Ok, now I understand about the rover crawlers, but what do you uprade them to. I've used that strategy before with High tech low industry factions.

Frankies formula is for units. I haven't tested it yet. Has anybody. I think someone should graph it, and the real one. Maybe I will, but I'm pretty busy.

[Ned]

Adam, You can buy as many low cost minerals as you want - Here is the trick:

Select hurry. Select partial payment. Pay any $ you want. If the number is more than the cost of the facility, it will be accepted and you get the minerals. The extra minerals will be shown in red in the production box.

You then switch production to your SP. Minerals are lost according to the fomula:

Remaing = (Minerals - 10)/2.

This means, in essence, you can buy an SP in one turn with relatively low cost minerals.

Morgan should be invincible.

Ned

[Frankie]

quote: Frankie that formula does not come even close to fitting a recycling tanks ... The unit formula seems much much more complex though..

Yes, that's why I said it was the (approximate) formula for unit hurry cost. Facilities are easy.

Adam_Smith, 2^x would be exponential. x^2 is only polynomial. There is a big difference. With an exponential function, you would have to pay about 1 billion energy for that fungicidal cruiser prototype you mentioned earlier.

Adam, I am a math teacher, so please stop. I will send an email to explain them to you.

[This message has been edited by Frankie (edited April 20, 2000).]