A bit of a question...

[Hydro]

** Start rant**

Apparently you gents don’t consider the moral implications of what you are recommending. I find the very idea of nerve stapling repulsive.

This is one of many reasons I shy away from MP games. In that anything goes atmosphere if you don’t commit atrocities (nerve gas, nerve stapling, PBing) you will likely lose since the game mechanics don’t offer any significant penalty in MP for doing so (as OO said: “Reputation shmeputation”). In fact, many consider the ‘penalties’ (eco disruptions, resulting in an effective increase in clean mineral prod and free worms to kill for energy) to be major bonuses, if you’re prepared, that is. Other penalties (loss of trade income) is also irrelevant in many circumstances, too.

The great attraction of SMAC/X for me is the storyline. Do you really want to build a new world on the back of atrocities? Granted, wars in the past here on Earth haven’t been pretty, but one would hope that some of the ‘lessons of Earth’ would be left behind. Otherwise we deserve to be extinct.

Hydro

Some recommendations for MP games:
* Atrocities may not be used by a faction using a democratic government (exceptions in Earth’s past exist, of course), or a Green or FM economic model
* Nerve stapling: may only be used when using a police state government model

Wish-list:
* Fix the fungal bloom = more clean minerals. I consider this to be a bug. It should be exactly the opposite – the more you torture Planet, the more sensitive it becomes and will punish you more by letting you produce less minerals without trigging a nasty environmental (white blood cell) response.
* Fix bug that lets you scrap structures that give bases eco bonuses after building them and then keep the bonus (eg – build Chiron Preserve, get less eco damage, then scrap: rinse and repeat at all bases, saving maintenance and getting scrap value)

****Rant over****

[Mead]

Originally posted by Hydro


1. This is one of many reasons I shy away from MP games. In that anything goes atmosphere if you don't commit atrocities (nerve gas, nerve stapling, PBing) you will likely lose since the game mechanics don't offer any significant penalty in MP for doing so (as OO said: 'Reputation shmeputation'). In fact, many consider the 'penalties' (eco disruptions, resulting in an effective increase in clean mineral prod and free worms to kill for energy) to be major bonuses, if you're prepared, that is. Other penalties (loss of trade income) is also irrelevant in many circumstances, too.


Wish-list:
2. * Fix the fungal bloom = more clean minerals. I consider this to be a bug. It should be exactly the opposite ? the more you torture Planet, the more sensitive it becomes and will punish you more by letting you produce less minerals without trigging a nasty environmental (white blood cell) response.
3. * Fix bug that lets you scrap structures that give bases eco bonuses after building them and then keep the bonus (eg ? build Chiron Preserve, get less eco damage, then scrap: rinse and repeat at all bases, saving maintenance and getting scrap value)

****Rant over****

I agree with Hydro.

1. There are two reasons why I have not started playing MP or partaking in the ACDGs.

First, I'm too cheap (yes, its true, but the honesty doesn't hurt) to part with the 70+ dollars it would take to purchase a copy of SMAX on EBay, since I got the SMAC for less than $20.00 new at retail.

Second, atrocities seem to reign supreme in MP. The use of atrocities seems to make me (for me) less happy with playing the game. I guess I could adapt my play to use atrocities but that kind of goes against my basis for playing the game (that is, the game must be enjoyable).

2. This seems to be an unanticipated 'bug' of the game and should be modifiable.

3. This almost certainly, is an unintended 'bug' of the code writing and should be modifiable. I have evolved my play to max out the manufacture of Tree Farms, Hybrid Forests, and Centuri Preserves (Temple of Planet comes too late to be of much use, I usually Transcend one or two turns after it becomes available) to keep my ecology damage in check, but I consider it to be 'cheating' as well as a less than fully efficient use of my production, to build and scrap my facilities solely to up my clean minerals by one. I usually am such a sprawler (and by the time I become worried about clean mins I am a conqueror) to have enough bases that I do not have to scrap any facilities because I want to rebuild them. Perhaps a modification could/should be made to reduce the clean mins limit by one for every such facility that you scrap, lose, or give away. It would only seem to make sense.


Mead

[Nakar Gabab]

Originally posted by Mead
Second, atrocities seem to reign supreme in MP. The use of atrocities seems to make me (for me) less happy with playing the game. I guess I could adapt my play to use atrocities but that kind of goes against my basis for playing the game (that is, the game must be enjoyable).

You might be marginally heartened to know that in the current PBEM I'm playing with some people elsewhere, atrocities are quite harshly spoken-of and even killing a base's last garrison (lowering the population by one) is considered "cold-blooded murder." Lots of people have had gas for a while but not a one has used it, out of fear of sanctions and war.

I guess we're not that hardcore on winning (yet!). We, I daresay, are actually almost roleplaying the thing.

But I'm really proud of our group. Even the people playing the Hive shy away from X-Rovers and the like.

[Mr. Harley]

The only time I have used nerve-stapling is as the Hive in SP. They were the second faction I ever played after the Gaians, and I decided what the heck, let's see how it works to control social unrest. It can be effective in SMAC versus SMAX, as there is no cumulative penalty. Of course now I realize why at the end of that game I had so many fungal pops, they had become my primary source of income! It's not a style I am paticularly interested in, but if playing a SMAC (not SMAX) aggressive strategy, where everyone hates you anyway, it makes sense for the story line. The Hive is not my favorite faction, but played correctly it is extremely powerful.

[Mead]

Originally posted by Nakar Gabab


You might be marginally heartened to know that in the current PBEM I'm playing with some people elsewhere, atrocities are quite harshly spoken-of and even killing a base's last garrison (lowering the population by one) is considered "cold-blooded murder." Lots of people have had gas for a while but not a one has used it, out of fear of sanctions and war.

I guess we're not that hardcore on winning (yet!). We, I daresay, are actually almost roleplaying the thing.

But I'm really proud of our group. Even the people playing the Hive shy away from X-Rovers and the like.

How do you keep the losing factions, once they see the handwriting on the wall that they are losing, from upping the ante and resorting to atrocities?

I guess, if you have infiltration, you could see what they are building and, should they choose to go the atrocity route you, and if you had sufficient supremacy, you could use atrocities yourself to exterminate them. But wouldn't this require the use of atrocities by yourself?


Mead

P.S.

I would like to play a good game, but the availability of atrocities seems to make it shorter and more brutish.

[Nakar Gabab]

Originally posted by Mead
How do you keep the losing factions, once they see the handwriting on the wall that they are losing, from upping the ante and resorting to atrocities?

I guess, if you have infiltration, you could see what they are building and, should they choose to go the atrocity route you, and if you had sufficient supremacy, you could use atrocities yourself to exterminate them. But wouldn't this require the use of atrocities by yourself?

Diplomatic pressure. We threaten war on each other if we commit atrocities, and threaten war on each other for "imperialism" if we angle to wipe someone out. Doesn't mean we don't prune folks considerably... but we haven't yet knocked anyone out.

[SynthetGod8]

I don't like to use atrocities like nerve gas or busters, but I do remember two games where I simply had no choice.
One was when I was playing as the Morgans. it was an SP builder scenario where I could only build 10 bases. I was allied with the Gaians, but when I built a land-bridge between our islands (so I could easily steal tech and such), they canceled the pact and dozens of mindworms poured out towards my core bases. They had the Amp and I had bad Planet rating so I was unable to defend against the tide for very long. What else could I do? I rushed a few nukes and destroyed the land bridge and the entire worm army. Then I took out every Gaian base that didn't have a Project in it with more nukes. It was tough, but the Gaian threat had to be eliminated.

The other SP game, I was the Gaians and the Spartans were threatening me with destruction. I had to stop their nuke production, but my weapons and morale were insufficient. So I built Nerve Gas weapons and reduced their vastly large empire by 2/3.

They were tough calls, but it was the only way to survive. Nerve gas seems cheap to use on a base. I mean, usually people want to keep the pop and the infrastructure. Plus, it's the principle of it. Then again, those players who have no problem using nerve gas and busters when they are not needed are the nearly the same as the players who cheat at other games like Diablo 2: just because they can.

[Chaos Theory]

I rarely use nerve gas and have yet to use planet busters, though I have been the victim of a few PBs. I use nerve gas when I am playing a war-bent faction with little alternative (Spartans), or when I am desperate and have reason to spite my opponent.

For example, in one MP game, an ally broke his pact with me and started hurting me along our shared border, taking my capital and another choice city. I responded with a wave of nerve gas planes, crippling his largest cities and prompting him to quit. The resulting sanctions were enough to sink my hopes for winning, though.

[johndmuller]

Nakar Gabab, you and your playing partners sound like fine people to play PBEMs with; I hope I run into you/them in my next one.

I've used nerve gas on the Aliens, mostly because you can, and it really does do a number on them, to the extent that it seems too easy. Also, if you want to take their bases, you don't really want to decimate their population, as they will soon be your population.

A use for nerve stapling that seems to have so far escaped mention is for when you have just taken a moderate sized base minus its previously existing drone control facilities - since it is in the midst of a war zone, you might find yourself anxious to maintain its production for a while so that it can produce stuff in a reasonable timeframe, rather than have to turn most of its workers into specialists and zapping its production. I don't recall if there are extra sanctions for this, as there would be for destroying the base, but there might be.

[Mongoose]

No 'extra' sanctions apply to stapling a newly captured base. Doing so is treated just like any other minor atrocity. HOWEVER, if you staple a base of an AI faction (while the captured base flag is till set) that AI will never submit to you...you will have set its 'victim of atrocities' flag. Of course, if its a human opponent in a PBEM, that's a moot point!