Early game secret projects - how and when to build them?

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by CEO Aaron
MM: Your example, while illustrative of Vel's concept of comparitive turn advantage is spurious in two respects: #1. You don't have enough EC's to rush everything everywhere. #2. You probably have other bases producing other things that will produce better dividends from the cash you've got to spend.

#1:
This applies to everything. What I'm doing is priorizing the SP I'm building before anything else.

#2:
I will still rush build formers and pods, when able.

Originally posted by CEO Aaron
Most SPs are incredibly efficient generators of turn-advantage, much more than a couple of extra minerals from idle crawlers. Don't get me wrong, you'll want to roll crawlers to get minerals in order to ramp up your production, they're a very good deal, but each SP can only be built ONCE, and if you miss out, the only way to regain the benefit is a protracted war, since the faction you deprive of it will be VERY determined to get it back. Besides, most SPs will be built in core bases, making them very hard to approach.

Don't you see that by rushing the crawlers I'm rushing the project I'm building? The crawlers are not sitting idle - they are harvesting minerals and waiting for the moment they are cashed into the SP. As soon as I have enough crawlers, I can insta-build the project.

[CEO Aaron]

Okay, here's my example scenario: As you can see, I'm playing as Morgan, and have started off on a small island. Not the best location, and I will need to make sure I obtain the Weather Paradigm, so I can raise a land-bridge to the nearby continent. By 2150, I've planted 7 bases, the most I'm comfortable cramming into such a small island, one past the bureaucracy limit on a large map at transcend. As you can see, I've discovered Industrial Automation, as well as SotHB, so I'm ready to start crash-building SPs.

The two options presented are to a) rush build crawlers until you have enough to crash build the SP. b) hoard energy credits until you have enough to upgrade them and produce the SP.

[CEO Aaron]

Okay, here's my solution to the scenario: 8 turns later, I've built up a few crawlers, and have upgraded 2 of them to synth/trance crawlers to crash-build. I do have 2 AA's in my base, but have opted not to use them, to simplify the example.

MM, if you can produce the WP in less time, or can complete the SP in slightly more time but with considerably more crawler power, I'd be thrilled to discover how. I make no claims to possess any superior skill or wisdom, it's just that, to my mind, this is the most efficent way to get the SP built, without adversely affecting my growth.

PS: Don't just cash in the AA's, that's cheating.

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by CEO Aaron
Okay, here's my solution to the scenario: 8 turns later, I've built up a few crawlers, and have upgraded 2 of them to synth/trance crawlers to crash-build. I do have 2 AA's in my base, but have opted not to use them, to simplify the example.

MM, if you can produce the WP in less time, or can complete the SP in slightly more time but with considerably more crawler power, I'd be thrilled to discover how. I make no claims to possess any superior skill or wisdom, it's just that, to my mind, this is the most efficent way to get the SP built, without adversely affecting my growth.

PS: Don't just cash in the AA's, that's cheating.

There weren't many forests in place for my crawlers, so I think rushing crawlers was slightly less effective than what I'm used to. Having said that, by rushing the crawlers I built the WP in 1954 and the HGP in 1957. That is, I built two SPs before you had finished your first.

[Minute Mirage]

Here's the second save, I just completed the HGP here.

[Lazerus]

This is why crawler upgrades are banned in quite a few games, makes getting the SP built way to cheap.

[Ned]

I think the HGP and the WP are so important that I always try to get them both, the HGP first. To do this, I now never build a colony pod in my home base, but set it immediately to building an SP. If I find an AA, I use it to build the SP. Using this method, I normally can get both of these critical SPs in my home base. Waiting for crawlers may take some time if you are using blind research.

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by Lazerus
This is why crawler upgrades are banned in quite a few games, makes getting the SP built way to cheap.

I didn't upgrade the crawlers, I just rush builded them. Surely that's not disallowed?

[CEO Aaron]

Well, you may indeed have something there. I'm trying to evaluate whether having 11 extra mineral production (the uncashed crawlers I have currently collecting minerals) is worth not having the HGP, and thus far, I'm coming to the conclusion that no, I'd rather have the SP.

I took a second look at the numbers, and when you're at +1 industry (running wealth) upgrading a crawler from 10 minerals nets you 20 minerals (assuming you toggle SE choices when cashing in your crawlers, always a good policy) and cost 48 EC's, for a cost of 2.4 ECs per mineral purchased. Upgrading is slightly more efficent, upgrading a 30 mineral unit to an 80 mineral unit for 80 ECs, a net gain of 50 minerals, for a cost of .1.6 ECs per mineral purchased. The question is, does the extra FOPs gathered from your crawlers compensate for the 33% discount in the energy cost of your purchased minerals? It would appear that the answer is yes.

If you've already have a large stockpile of EC's handy, upgrading crawlers costs 2/3s what rush-building and cashing them in will cost, so for later game projects upgrading seems to be the way to go.

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by CEO Aaron

I took a second look at the numbers, and when you're at +1 industry (running wealth) upgrading a crawler from 10 minerals nets you 20 minerals (assuming you toggle SE choices when cashing in your crawlers, always a good policy) and cost 48 EC's, for a cost of 2.4 ECs per mineral purchased.

I assume you mean rushing the crawler instead of upgrading it? Anyway, I don't understand what good changing my SE settings when finishing the SP will do for me. Yes, I'll gain more minerals if I cash the crawler at 0 industry, but the project itself will be more expensive. Changing the SE settings would only be useful if I'm cashing in a lot of AAs, but not with crawlers.

Originally posted by CEO Aaron
Upgrading is slightly more efficent, upgrading a 30 mineral unit to an 80 mineral unit for 80 ECs, a net gain of 50 minerals, for a cost of .1.6 ECs per mineral purchased. The question is, does the extra FOPs gathered from your crawlers compensate for the 33% discount in the energy cost of your purchased minerals? It would appear that the answer is yes.

The cost to upgrade is 90 ECs IIRC. Note also that like Curiosity said, the cost of upgrading remains static regardless of your industry rating. This means that the better industry rating you have, the more beneficial it is for you to rush build the crawlers.

Anyway, I'll try to make another example to illustrate the rush building. OK, let's say we have a size one base that has one worker on a forest and no infrastructure. The base currently produces 3 mins per turn and has been making a crawler for four turns, which means that the crawler is 12/27 ready (assuming FM/wealth here). Now, the cost to rush build the crawler so that it will be finished next turn is (*checks from Nethog's table) 33 ECs. This means that we buy 12 minerals for 33 ECs at 2,75/mineral and also gain four turns of advantage.

Now, what do get with those four turns? Assuming we have another forest ready either adjacent to the base or on a road we can start harvesting 2 min/turn with the crawler. This means that during the next four turns our base will be producing an extra of 20 minerals. So now the total number of minerals we got with that 33 ECs is 32. That is 1,03125 ECs per min.

This of course assumes that we have been able to do some terraforming beforehand. Thankfully, the forests have a nice tendency to spread.

If there's a mistake in my thinking, please point it out. I'm just trying to figure this all out myself.

Originally posted by CEO Aaron
If you've already have a large stockpile of EC's handy, upgrading crawlers costs 2/3s what rush-building and cashing them in will cost, so for later game projects upgrading seems to be the way to go.

I agree that later on, especially when your income is several hunderds ECs per turn, upgrading the crawlers seems better.

[Ned]

The crawler upgrade trick is well known. It vastly reduces the cost of an SP. The AI never uses it, so I personally never use it as well.

One more thing. If you have the tech, get those gun boats out and hunting for pods. They bring in loads of extra cash which you can then use to rush the early SPs.

[CEO Aaron]

MM, by toggling SE settings, I mean that you pay 40 ECs to switch from wealth to to survival SE values, or even power, to effectively increase the number of minerals you receive when cashing in the crawler. Once you have cashed them all in, switch back to wealth and recoup your 40 EC investment, and you've gotten 10-30% more minerals from your crawlers than had you stayed at Wealth while cashing them in.

Regardless of whether you're upgrading crawlers or not, you should be doing this, unless your multiplayer rules forbid it.

[CEO Aaron]

Ned, I prefer to pop sea-pods with transports, that way I can get free units and even AAs.

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by CEO Aaron
MM, by toggling SE settings, I mean that you pay 40 ECs to switch from wealth to to survival SE values, or even power, to effectively increase the number of minerals you receive when cashing in the crawler. Once you have cashed them all in, switch back to wealth and recoup your 40 EC investment, and you've gotten 10-30% more minerals from your crawlers than had you stayed at Wealth while cashing them in.

Regardless of whether you're upgrading crawlers or not, you should be doing this, unless your multiplayer rules forbid it.

Ah, now I see what you mean. I think the MP rules usually forbid switching the SE settings like this and it feels like a cheat to me too.

[Kody]

I think the MP rules usually forbid switching the SE settings like this and it feels like a cheat to me too.

All the MP rules I've seen label it as a cheat. I think the term they use is SE flip-flops.