Early game secret projects - how and when to build them?

[BustaMike]

8: Planetary Transit System: I'm not a big fan of this SP, since by the time it is usually built, if your development is healthy, you're not going to make too many more bases. If you're pursuing an ICS strategy, or if your SE restrictions keep you from Pop-booming easily, PTS can offer some useful benefits.

This SP is much more powerful than you're giving it credit for, especially if you can get it early. All your bases are now size 3, as is any new base you make. The extra energy and production you gain from this can make a HUGE difference early on, often doubling your production capability. You can also squeeze out one or two more bases (size 3 ) w/o fear of drones because it reduces drones in small bases by 1. If there is one SP that's important to get early on, this is it.

[Chaos Theory]

I agree that most SPs are worth much more than their mineral costs, but the same goes for colony pods, so the issue is which is worth more than the other, and when?

[Mead]

Originally posted by Chaos Theory
I agree that most SPs are worth much more than their mineral costs, but the same goes for colony pods, so the issue is which is worth more than the other, and when?

You must continue growth, so you must go for colony pods first.

Usually I like to get about 5-6 bases established before I start to devote one or more of them to SPs. Then I continue making colony pods with the high nutrient output bases and start SPs with the high mineral output bases.

It is more important to have sufficient mass to grow, compete with your opponents, and survive than it is to have SPs. If you lose out on an SP race, depending upon how close the SP is to your territory, you may still be able to get it so long as you have enough mass to take it. If it looks like you may lose an SP race you must win (i.e. VW for University) and it looks like you won't be able to get it easily through capture then do what you have to (and can) to prioritize it over new colony pods.

If you don't develop enough bases to have enough mass to present an adequate defense, you won't be able to keep any SPs you develop if a bigger faction can get to you before you get to reap the benefits of the SPs.


I agree with most of CEO Aaron's lengthy but very accurate and useful evaluation of the values of each early SP. I do like (but don't absolutely need) the PTS. I don't often get it (until I capture it), but when I do, it allows my new bases the ability to defend and develop themselves almost immediately.


Mead


PS. I love CEO Aaron's observation of Neural Amp, particularly if you later intend on getting, and using, the Dream Twister.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by lord of the mark

I probably need to refine my tech beelining.

It helped my game immensely to do so. You can beeline to crawlers very quickly, usually with only one or two "extra" techs. For me those techs are Centauri Ecology (usually my first tech chosen) and the tech that allows you recycling tanks and the HGP. With a huge planet playing the University I can usually get there by the late 2220s to the early 2230s. Other factions typically take a bit longer, but even the Hive can get there by 2150 fairly easily. Bad terrain can hinder this, but assuming decent starting terrain these estimates are very do-able.

[Jamski]

Of course Neural Amp is crucial for DeeDee, just to stop anyone else getting it and killing your worms, and there's a certain sense in rushing for the VW if playing against Zak, especially in MP. Getting the Empath Guild is great for Morgan, as the practically guarranteed govenorship gives you then +2 commerce (get those global trade pacts going) PTS is only really usefull if you have a good police rating, and some terraforming already in place for the new site, otherwise my new size three base riots and starves back to size one in two turns, so often I wish I hadn't build the darn thing :P

WP : If I don't get it, I really miss it.

-Jam

[igtenos]

Originally posted by Chaos Theory
igtenos said:
"...most HGP-less factions get their first drone around 4 or 5 population"

What difficulty level are you playing on? Everything I said is for transcend level, where most HGP-less factions get their first drone at 2 population.

Sorry -- I mainly play on Thinker.

And an open question: just how much is each secret project worth? That is, how much should you slow your production to snag a project? This differs by faction, of course, depending on how much bureaucracy hurts.

Depends on the faction & your personal tactics. Personally, I prefer to take the 'slow road' to the ICS. Once I have about 3-4 bases, it's strictly Garrison/Former/Colony then start building base facilities (usually Rec. Commons & if I have Ethical Calculus early enough, Children's Chreches) and the early projects like WP & HGP provided the mineral count is high enough. The new bases build repeat the process until I start hitting those beauracracy warnings.

But I think most of them, especially the early ones, can be decisive in determining how your games more often then not turns out in the end.

If I assign anything to a project before crawlers help spread
the cost, I assign just one base, because all the rest are making colony pods, formers, rec tanks, or possibly even military units if I have a neighbor.

Also, Industrial Automation is usually the fifth or sixth tech I research. I beeline for it, except I pick Centauri Ecology as soon as possible (with most factions).

I'm the wacko here as I have yet to use crawlers extensively since in most cases extensive 'forming, pop booming, and building the right base facilities will usually provide enough minerals to get by.

[UnityScoutChopper]

CEO Aaron wrote:

The reason you see SPs arrive earlier than in Civ2 is the presence of Alien Artifacts.

I think there are other reasons as well.
1. The early-game SP's are much more useful than the early-game Civ II wonders, since they never become obsolete.
2. Multiplayer exists for SMAC, and I think we are including MP in the consideration of "how early SP's come. Competition for Wonders/SP by humans who realize their importance and are capable of building them faster than AI's (despite the AI's industry bonuses) means faster completion of the first ones.
3. Certainly among humans, and arguably among AI's, IA comes faster than Trade did in Civ II. It's five techs, all of them useful and several of them immediately useful.
4. SC's, once they're allowed, can be built faster than caravans (usually <= 30 production instead of 50), especially if one is running planned/wealth.
5. SMAC's design encourages ICS, which in turn speeds up early production.

USC

[Lazerus]

How : AA's , mined mineral resoures, crawlers.

When : the speed will prob be determined by the 3 things above, quickest on the left. If you're lucky and get 2-3 AA's you can get a SP straight away really, even 1 AA or a mineral count of 8 ensures that you get 1 by 2135. Normally once my inner ring of bases is done i'll set about getting a base near mineral resouces up high or when i get crawlers ill push 2-3 bases upto 20 minerals and leave them to get the SP's. Once theres none that i want they build crawlers give them to the weaker bases that pumped them up (switch base not donate minerals incase you're thinking that)

[Mead]

Originally posted by Jamski

***
PTS is only really usefull if you have a good police rating, and some terraforming already in place for the new site, otherwise my new size three base riots and starves back to size one in two turns, so often I wish I hadn't build the darn thing :P

WP : If I don't get it, I really miss it.

-Jam

If you do get PTS you have to be mindful of where you place your new bases.

If your new bases are not near already teraformed sites or special nutrient squares you're going to go from that 3 population to 2 population real quick.

You can counteract the poor police rating by rush building stuff like police units or rec commons. You can also transfer and base air or other units there immediately after you establish the base.

In the end though, although I like the PTS it is not a SP that I would worry too much about missing out on. It can be useful, but requires some care after you get it.

The Cloning Vats, a far more powerful and useful (many would say essential), SP is similar in that once you get it, you better be prepared to handle its effects. Once you get the Cloning Vats be prepared to have an effective drone management policy.


Mead

[Sikander]

I wonder why so many people complain about having a pop boom, whether via the Cloning Vats, SE settings or the mini-boom that you get by building the PTS. It's a very simple thing to deal with any of the repercussions of these sudden increases in population, and the benefits are staggering. One simple thing you can do is build crawlers and crawl in nutrients to your bases. This can turn a drone into a productive specialist (or two with a condensor farm, three with a condensor farm + a soil enricher). Doctors may not produce anything particularly useful much of the time, but they will once the base grows to size 5+, or you get Empaths. SPs, facilities, police, colony pods are all very useful for getting various drones to become workers if you'd prefer them to specialists. Even playing the University on Transcend I hardly give drones a second thought, there are so many ways to deal with them.

[BustaMike]

If your new bases are not near already teraformed sites or special nutrient squares you're going to go from that 3 population to 2 population real quick.

PTS is only really usefull if you have a good police rating, and some terraforming already in place for the new site, otherwise my new size three base riots and starves back to size one in two turns, so often I wish I hadn't build the darn thing :P

Who cares? Size 2 is still better than size one. Even if the base has problems you're still getting an advantage, and as far as police problems go, you get one less drone because of the PTS so any police problems with new bases is 99% likely to be due to bad playing.

Seriously, I can't believe you guys don't put more value in this SP. I can remember a game (Velociryx vs. someone, Ogie maybe, any veterans here remember?) where the entire game was won by one person getting the PTS one turn before the other. The thread might still be in the multiplayer forum if you wanna look. It was called the Ultimate Builder Challenge I think.

[CEO Aaron]

Mike, I agree that this SP when used properly can be very effective, I guess I haven't been using it too effectively. As I said in my evaluation, once I'm busy getting my SP crunch, my expansion rush is mostly complete. I'll typically only be able to found 2-4 more bases before hitting the bureaucracy cap, since I want to preserve my ability to GA/Pop Boom. Playing Dee, Aki, Yang or Sven, this gets much more effective, and PTS and HGP are a great combination for Lal.

[Jamski]

This SP actually hinders my expansion because instead of having a size one base productive from the go, I have a size three base, that starves (1 turn wasted production) and then riots (2nd turn wasted production) then often starves and riots again (3rd turn wasted production) so I get my size one base, but 3 turns later. Or I could rush build police and rec commons and pre-terraform the site, but this is very expensive and former-time consuming. Better is if the base builds its own police, commons and formers as it needs them. Really, at this point in the game I'm not swimming in cash or formers yet, that won't happen for another 40-50 turns, and at this point there's so many other SPs to build. Let the AI have it and its problems, because they DEFINITELY can't cope with it. It kills Morgan for example

-Jam

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by BustaMike


Who cares? Size 2 is still better than size one. Even if the base has problems you're still getting an advantage, and as far as police problems go, you get one less drone because of the PTS so any police problems with new bases is 99% likely to be due to bad playing.

Seriously, I can't believe you guys don't put more value in this SP. I can remember a game (Velociryx vs. someone, Ogie maybe, any veterans here remember?) where the entire game was won by one person getting the PTS one turn before the other. The thread might still be in the multiplayer forum if you wanna look. It was called the Ultimate Builder Challenge I think.

Vel vs. Zso. Zso kicked Vel's butt IIRC. I bow to the gaming Demon named Zso.

Vel was Zak IIRC and Zso was Dee IIRC.

And I echo all comments made on ability to grow in pop size by whatever means.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Jamski
This SP actually hinders my expansion because instead of having a size one base productive from the go, I have a size three base, that starves (1 turn wasted production) and then riots (2nd turn wasted production) then often starves and riots again (3rd turn wasted production) so I get my size one base, but 3 turns later. Or I could rush build police and rec commons and pre-terraform the site, but this is very expensive and former-time consuming. Better is if the base builds its own police, commons and formers as it needs them. Really, at this point in the game I'm not swimming in cash or formers yet, that won't happen for another 40-50 turns, and at this point there's so many other SPs to build. Let the AI have it and its problems, because they DEFINITELY can't cope with it. It kills Morgan for example

-Jam

PTS needs to be prepared for. Dee kills with it because worst comes to worst she eats fungus. All others need a little infrastructure (either rec commons, HGP) a +2 nut square and/or recycle tanks. As such PTS is usually one of my last SP builds prefering usually HGP, WP, and PEG.