Should we get stroppy with the Data Angels?

[Googlie]

How should we respond to the Angels provocation?

[Googlie]

And I've kicked off by being stroppy and aggressive

[vishniac]

I've chosen "No - let's stay cosy and friendly towards them UNTIL WE ARE READY TO CRUSH THEM!"

So, next post in The Council of War, I supppose. I've got to study the latest save and churn out some twisted plan involving founding a seabase and...

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Googlie
And I've kicked off by being stroppy and aggressive

What does 'stroppy' mean?
Btw, have you already voted?

[Maniac]

I voted "Yes - let's rap their knuckles and build the Ascetic Virtues from under their noses".

On one side, it would be a bit a pity that we managed to get involved in wars or diplomatic troubles with all three factions already.

But on the other side, I ask myself: why do we need to keep good relations with the Angels?

Besides some commerce income, I can see two reasons:

a) we need friendly relations to be able to engage in tech trades
b) we need friendly relations to prevent them attacking us

Regarding reason a) tech trades.
This reason isn't as important anymore if we manage to build the Planetary Datalinks. Without tech trading we probably won't have instant access to the latest technologies, but the PDL would certainly prevent us from falling back.

Besides I'm wondering whether we'll do many tech trades with the other factions in the future anyway. I get the impression we're somewhat being excluded from tech trading due to our powerful position. IIRC the last deal we signed with the Angels was in fact six months ago the deal involving EthCalc, IntInt, the CDF and AV. Meanwhile technologies have been flowing more freely between the three other factions. And no one has asked whether we'd be interesting in trading for Neural Grafting or Adaptive Doctrine (though of course they've only had it one year).

Regarding reason b) prevent military attacks.
The Angels and Spartans are on the opposite side of Planet. Large scale war is currently very hard to impossible between us. If they'd really want to do damage to us, they'd probably sit back and let the Weasels do their dirty work. So to keep our homelands safe we need peace with the Corporations and Gaia, which is what we're currently trying to achieve.


Besides I have the impression the Angels aren't that fond of us anyway. They've opportunistically kept peace with us as currently we're still useful to them, but there are signs that indicate they clearly favour the Gaians and Corporation. Eg they've signed a pact with the Gaians, and GeoModder's interventions in the peace conference were directed at the Corporation not paying us anything to get peace.

So I'm wondering whether we have that much to lose by deteriorating relations with the Angels.

Compare that to the benefits of the Ascetic Virtues. +2 hab complex limit and +1 police is perfect for a Spartan popboom strategy. It would make building tree farms asap in all Arcadian bases profitable after all.

[Googlie]

Stroppy means warlike and unruly (OED says "bad tempered, and awkward to deal with"

- and I voted the first choice - rapped knuckles and steal the AV from under their noses

EDIT: Hmm - per the posts there should be 2 votes for "rap knuckles" (Maniac and me) and 1 for "stay cosy and friendly" (vishniac)

But I just see 1 and 1 in the results column

Edit of Edit: Hmm - now I can vote again - and did so, this time registering

G.

[Modo44]

I voted for trying to bully it out of them. We will have time starting after they post their current turn, and ending when we get it. If we fail to negotiate this, we can still go with "stroppy".

[Maniac]

Just found another explanation for the University energy reserves: they switching to Knowledge SE settings...

[wuy3]

Always go with diplomacy so in the future we can blame them for "forcing our hands". Bullying it is!

[Maniac]

Since we might have gotten all excited about... Zak spending 24 credits to switch to Knowledge SE how about posting this 'soft blackmail' message instead in the Angel embassy in reply to Geo's latest post:

The Junta is curious as to why the Data Angels are unwilling to consider a deal regarding the Ascetic Virtues secret project. As you have no doubt deducted, the Federation will imminently acquire Planetary Economics. While our current agreement with you prohibits us from adopting Ascetic Virtues, there is no agreement saying you have the sole rights to the Ascetic Virtues, nor one prohibiting us from trading the technology PlanEcon to other factions.

Before we turned to the Gaians and even later to you to research Intellectual Integrity for us, before our relations with the Corporation deteriorated to war because of the unfortunate Hunter incident, we were in fact discussing a leapfrog with the Corporation to get to Intellectual Integrity and Planetary Economics, so that we could found the Citizen's Defence Force, and they the Ascetic Virtues with its ability to build larger bases pre-hab complex than just size four. If you insist on keeping our Ascetic Virtues agreement, the Junta is therefore confident that our refound friends of the Corporation would be more than happy to buy Planetary Economics from us and with it the ability to adopt Ascetic Virtues.

Frankly, as you can see there's like no chance at all you would be able to adopt the Ascetic Virtues yourselves. Why then do you insist on keeping the Ascetic Virtues? We assumed it would be a trivial matter to buy back the secret project rights, so to speak. Either you gain something, such as a global trade pact and Cyberethics without having to make extra costs, or either you gain nothing. Where lies the problem??

[Modo44]

A bit exaggerated, the abilities of the Corporation. But hey, maybe they will fall for it. Also, I think there is no need to say specifically to whom we would be willing to trade the tech (and the project). Maybe I am missing something, but why give the details? Why not let them wonder what we could be up to? Or do we want to direct their worries to Morgan to create a diversion?

[Googlie]

Well, it's worth a lot more to Morgan than to anyone else (they can grow another 50% pre hab complexes - from 4 to 6 - the PK's 22% - from 9 to 11 - and 30% for the rest of us - from 7 to 9)

And I like the gist of the suggested post (they have the turn right now, btw - the Gaians had it for less than 12 hours!!!)

[Googlie]

How about this version (just a few minor changes to put it in context - my changes either striked or bold)

The Junta is curious perplexed as to why the Data Angels are unwilling to consider a deal regarding the Ascetic Virtues secret project. As you have no doubt deducted can no doubt deduce, the Federation will imminently acquire Planetary Economics. While our current agreement with you prohibits us from adopting Ascetic Virtues, there is no agreement between us giving you saying you have the sole rights to the Ascetic Virtues, nor one prohibiting us from trading the technology PlanEcon to other factions.

Before we turned to the Gaians and even later to you to research Intellectual Integrity for us, and before our relations with the Corporation deteriorated to war because of the unfortunate Hunter incident, we were in fact discussing a leapfrog with the Corporation to get to Intellectual Integrity and Planetary Economics, so that we the Federation could found the Citizen's Defence Force, and they the Corporation could build the Ascetic Virtues.

This was attractive to them with its ability to build larger bases pre-hab complex than just size four.

If you insist on prohibiting us from building the Ascetic Virtues Special Project keeping our Ascetic Virtues agreement, the Junta is therefore confident that our refound friends - of the Corporation - would be more than happy to buy Planetary Economics from us and with it the ability to adopt Ascetic Virtues.

Frankly, as you can see there's likely no chance at all you would be able to adopt the Ascetic Virtues yourselves. Why then do you insist on keeping spurious title to this Special Project? the Ascetic Virtues? We assumed it would be a trivial matter to buy back the secret project rights, so to speak. Either you gain something, such as a global trade pact and Cyberethics without having to make imcur extra costs, or either else you gain nothing.

Where lies the problem??

[Modo44]

Sounds better now. Much more... uh... diplomatic.

But you probably meant "incur", not "imcur".

[Snoddasmannen]

Could we gift a base to the Morgans, let them build it, and then ask them to gift it back to us? We would be ready to recapture it of course, should they betray us.

But on the other hand this would be very risky since we'd have to hand over our crawlers too.