Should we get stroppy with the Data Angels?

[Modo44]

Originally posted by Snoddasmannen
Could we gift a base to the Morgans, let them build it, and then ask them to gift it back to us? We would be ready to recapture it of course, should they betray us.

But on the other hand this would be very risky since we'd have to hand over our crawlers too.

It would be crazy. With their new air fleet, they would be able to keep it, except against a massive attack that would seriously damage both us and them. Do you remember why we wanted peace in the first place?

[Googlie]

So - with that 1 typo corrected, I've posted it in the Embassy - the A's still have a ferw hours left with their current turn to examins the RealPolitik of the situation

[Maniac]

[Maniac]

Look at this thread.

GeoModder says he's leaving because of our recent message posted in the Angel embassy. Geo has been telling me before he didn't enjoy the ACDG that much anymore (low Angels activity - things seemed more interesting with the Spartans ), so this may have just been the final trigger, but still...

As 'spiritual father' of the message I'm wondering... I know I'm not as trustworthy as other players with regards to living by deals. My threshold for breaking deals in the game when I see a good opportunity for myself is much lower than the average. And I don't have that much diplomatic PBEM experience. Which is why I (sometimes unsuccesfully such as now ) try to steer away from diplomacy in this ACDG. I just might screw things up.

But still, is our recent message so 'sickening', to use GeoModder's term? I just considered it hard realpolitik diplomacy. AFAIK we wouldn't be breaking the deal we signed with the Angels, not the letter but also not the spirit. We in fact never promised not to trade PlanEcon. Actually, IIRC we agreed not to build the AV back when we assumed the Corporation would build it and the promise not to build it ourselves was rather meaningless.

Also, isn't breaking deals sometimes (which AFAIK we aren't doing), making threats, doing behind-the-back deals with third parties part of the game, just like declaring war on someone, sometimes for good reason, sometimes just because it's profitable?

Does GeoModder just need to grow a thicker skin if he wants to play this game, or am I really so out of touch with the diplomatic standards of the PBEM community?

[Modo44]

My first thought upon reading GeoModder's comment about the game being "sickening": Bad loser. Sorry, but that is how it looks to me.

[Snoddasmannen]

Wow, that was a powerful post by Geo.

I think it's important to remember that all the deals and negotiations we carry out in the game, we carry out wearing Spartan military uniforms and fake beards. If Sparta decides to break a deal, or threaten somebody, this does not reflect on the persons playing Sparta.

One might have grounds to complain if we are not playing like Sparta. Such as if we were to name all our cities by the names of flowers or fluffy animals.

That said, I think the message which we posted in the embassy is perfectly Sparta in-character. If it were not, surely one of us who are playing Sparta would have complained

So the only conclusion I can draw is that Geo does not like the characteristics of Sparta, and was sickened by us. Fair enough, but we played our part well I think, and you should certainly not take this as a personal set-back in any way. This public display by Geo was uncalled for imo ...

So basically, I think he needs tougher skin But it's a shame, he's been good fun, I'll miss him.

[Googlie]

I agree

I could see him quitting if we out-and-out broke our deal and did build the AV ourselves.

but we are merely pointing out a fact to him

If they feel so strongly, then they need to make it worth Morgan's while not to build the AV - that's diplomacy at work, but i guess if they are light in numbers then maybe no-one has the time.

So, Maniac, don't take this personally (it won't affect personal relations with GM, will it?)

It's prolly good that it was posted under my sig, as then he won't be able to attribute any ownership to you

(But "sickens" is a bit strong. Disturbed, maybe, disappointed, perhaps, but "sickened"?

Should I post something in his "goodbye" thread? Maybe:

GeoModder - as the author of that "sickening" post, I'm disappointed that you don't appreciate the in-character Spartan roleplay at work

You'll be missed - and welcomed back should you decide at some point to return

G.

(or is that fanning the flames, so to speak?)

[Modo44]

Originally posted by Snoddasmannen
I think it's important to remember that all the deals and negotiations we carry out in the game, we carry out wearing Spartan military uniforms and fake beards.

Why do you think I need a fake one?

Kudos to the rest of your message. Our rolaplaying, and even the whole game strategy are very in line with Spartan attitude as I would imagine it. No point changing it because someone is having a hard time seeing where the game separates from real life.

[Googlie]

Of course, many of the ACDG-2 Pirates gravitated to the ACDG-3 Angels, and remember they were really ticked off at Maniac's CyCon snagging the MCC from under their noses there

Maybe residual animosities from his teammates rubbing off on Geo?

[DeathByTheSword]

i was thinking about the same thing (was a cycon myself) but what was the exact post the one with the threat about building the AV? or something else i missed?

[vishniac]

But still, is our recent message so 'sickening', to use GeoModder's term? I just considered it hard realpolitik diplomacy. AFAIK we wouldn't be breaking the deal we signed with the Angels, not the letter but also not the spirit.

Hem... If I were to get the message we posted to the Angels, I wouldn't quit but I would sure swear to make the Spartans pay, whatever the price for me...

Does GeoModder just need to grow a thicker skin if he wants to play this game

To PLAY this GAME?!?
I don't know him but it's just a GAME, for crying out loud!
He needs a thicker skin just to read the newspapers, just to watch the evening news, to hear that people have been killed by the dozens in Irak, by the hundreds in Uzbekistan,...
This game relaxes us from reality. not the other way.

That said, I think the message which we posted in the embassy is perfectly Sparta in-character. If it were not, surely one of us who are playing Sparta would have complained

I'm gonna complain more in the future, then!
I read today the History of the Peloponnesian War and it was Athens, not Sparta, who treated agreements as sheets of papers and went to war lightly repeatedly, even committing atrocities.
But I'm sure you were referring to 21st Century Sparta...

Whatever, no need to apologise or to change the RP.
If it's too hot for you, just leave the kitchen!

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Googlie
Of course, many of the ACDG-2 Pirates gravitated to the ACDG-3 Angels, and remember they were really ticked off at Maniac's CyCon snagging the MCC from under their noses there

Maybe residual animosities from his teammates rubbing off on Geo?

I'd bear in mind it's Geo, not his faction members, who has left. Geo was a CyCon in the ACDGII.

The post was not nasty in it's message, but could be construed to be so in it's language. The tone being "why don't you understand your place and let us do what we please" rather than pointing out a reality, as Googlie said. Having said that, there is nothing beyond Spartan roleplay in it, and I would not consider it offensive at all. I'm guessing it's the straw that broke the camel's back, in that the game has ceased to be fun moreso because of things like this.

However I would like to address one point Snoddasmannen made seperately:

I think it's important to remember that all the deals and negotiations we carry out in the game, we carry out wearing Spartan military uniforms and fake beards. If Sparta decides to break a deal, or threaten somebody, this does not reflect on the persons playing Sparta.

This is not the case. Yes you are roleplaying, but you are also playing according to your playing style. Everything you do does reflect on you as a person, as it is you roleplaying something. Even in the extreme case of an actor, they are roleplaying in the extreme and yet there is still an unmistakable style of themselves. If you break deals in a DG, it's the same as in a PBEM, you are seen as someone who will break deals - a realpolitik. Whatever Sparta does reflects on the Spartans.

As said before though, I don't see your embassy post as inappropriate.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by vishniac
To PLAY this GAME?!?
I don't know him but it's just a GAME, for crying out loud!
He needs a thicker skin just to read the newspapers, just to watch the evening news, to hear that people have been killed by the dozens in Irak, by the hundreds in Uzbekistan,...
This game relaxes us from reality. not the other way.

Not when you're on the receiving end. SMAC can become quite stressful, far more so in a team game running for over a year.

[Modo44]

Originally posted by Drogue
Not when you're on the receiving end. SMAC can become quite stressful, far more so in a team game running for over a year.

True that. All the effort, and the dudes on the other side of Chiron are still calling the shots.

As we are getting (visibly!) stronger each turn, we might get more such reactions...

[Googlie]

And let's not forget that this is the same GM who was peppering the Peace Conference with questions about our "Protectorate" contact prohibitions while all the time engaged in selling techs to that very Protectorate.

So let's not get too teary-eyed .......

(But I went ahead and posted my "You'll be missed" piece)