The Council of War

[Googlie]

Originally posted by Maniac
Eg there are two crawlers near Fort Soup just harvesting forests (only 2 mins). We could cash those in at FS to get a tree farm by MY 2170 (or MY 2169 if we also throw some cash at it).

Done (see the MY68 turn thread)

On a different note, as the turn is open, do we want to continue to harrass Morgan from the air?

Or do we want to sign a truce? (under the auspices of while we are waiting for the results of the proposed Planetary Peace Conference)

They have Interceptors completed at Argi Narnia and Morgan Transport that can cover their east and west coasts, so we'd lose at least a couple of noodles for the sake of destroying a crawler or two - or destroying a mine or forest - not a good trade off, IMO

We should also move the Njord to safety until we can armor it and give it AAA - it's a sitting duck to a missile noodle, even an interceptor with a 50% penalty and green - even if the Njord was elite!!(see below) and it's currently within range of the Angi Interceptor being commissioned next turn

[Modo44]

I say we withdraw. No point losing units for (rather) low-priority targets.

[Maniac]

If we switch to Democracy, and then contact Lal, he will ask us to sign a pact of brotherhood and join together in a war against the Hive.

So some questions: do we want to switch to Democracy next year already?

And do we want to go back to war with Yang again? Not at all? Only if he moved a unit in our territory? Even if he doesn't move a unit into our territory?

For the record, the effects of switching to democracy next year would be:

+12 credits
+18.8 labs
-19 minerals due to extra support costs

Additional benefit would be that Fort Soup will popboom to size seven. Also since due to +2 Growth less nutrients are needed to full the nut box, Messena will immediately grow to size 3, a few turns earlier than under Fundy. SC3 & IB would also grow soon.

Some other positive and negative effects that are harder to put in exact numbers:

• Possibility to popboom (when we have the bases ready of course)
• Founding bases doesn't give 10 free minerals anymore. That negative doesn't matter on the short term of course, since we currently have no new bases planned.
• All units drop one morale level.
• All probes drop two morale levels.

[Modo44]

Originally posted by Maniac
If we switch to Democracy, and then contact Lal, he will ask us to sign a pact of brotherhood and join together in a war against the Hive.

So some questions: do we want to switch to Democracy next year already?

Question is: Do we want to switch to Democracy at all. It would be bad for our production due to the number of units we are fielding. It would also almost certainly throw us back to war with Yang.

Originally posted by Maniac
And do we want to go back to war with Yang again? Not at all? Only if he moved a unit in our territory? Even if he doesn't move a unit into our territory?

Wait at least two turns to see if Yang marches units back in. If he stays away, I say we stay at Frontier+Planned and try to get closer with the Hive, rather that with the Peacekeepers.

We can later switch to Police State+Green if the opportunity arises.

Originally posted by Maniac
For the record, the effects of switching to democracy next year would be:

Very bad production standings. I think that is enough to keep us form doing this. Remember, we are growing at +20% already.

For now, we can safely get off Fundy, and that is all I would do.

[Googlie]

The trouble is that we need at some point to run DEM/Planned to pop boom in competition with the Gaians and Angels. We've hamstrung Morgan who needs a GA to boom, now that they can't do a geometric boom (every new size 3 base means 3 new ones with the (destroyed) PTS)

But already the Angels have a handful of size-7 bases and as soon as they get hab complexes they'll be off and running with dem/planned

The morale loss of changing out of Fundy can be partially alleviated by worm hunting and hoping for battlefield upgrades, but that's not a sure thing. A bioenhancement center (Neural Grafting) would get us back on Elites for new units, but running Power (Advanced Military Algorithms) gives us a +2 morale, and the Cloning Vats (Biomachinery - needs MMI and Retroviral Engineering) restores the -2 Industry that running power would cause

But there wouldn't be an easy solution for the probes loss of effectiveness (other than maybe doubling # Crypteia at the exposed coastal bases)

(I'm a bit confused as to the effective timimg in the game of a SE change. If we use the current turn as a simulator, and change now to Dem, then Lal treats us as though we are dem, but yet the probes all retain their Fundy status regarding morale.

I know that changing, eg to Green - has no effect on mindworm capture that turn (ie, no immediate +1 planet rating - notwithstanding the "no Quickie" rule - I never understood either why that was a problem as I understood that there was never an effect on units, actions, builds that change turn anyway) so I'm assuming it's the same with +/- probe. Yet why does Lal immediately see us as DEM? (or, I presume, Yang as POLICE, if we changed to that - and if he talked to us - maybe that's what the "no quickie" rule is meant to prohibit?)

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Modo44
Question is: Do we want to switch to Democracy at all.

Originally posted by Googlie
The trouble is that we need at some point to run DEM/Planned to pop boom in competition with the Gaians and Angels.

I agree with Googlie. Personally I'd say the question is not IF we should switch to democracy, but when we should. After all, if it's not for popbooming, why would we want to build tree farms and children's creches?

Originally posted by Googlie
But there wouldn't be an easy solution for the probes loss of effectiveness (other than maybe doubling # Crypteia at the exposed coastal bases)

Bioenhancement centers also provide probes with 2 extra morale levels. Only for newbuilt probes of course.

(or, I presume, Yang as POLICE, if we changed to that - and if he talked to us - maybe that's what the "no quickie" rule is meant to prohibit?)

"Diplomatic fraud", so to speak, is indeed one of the reasons. Another thing is that apparently Industry would be affected the same turn. So you could switch to a very bad Industry SE setting, cash in your crawlers for a SP at an increased mineral value, and then switch back to a very good Industry SE, making your secret project cheaper. Last and first time I tested this out (a couple years back ) it didn't work though. So either I might have been doing something wrong, or it has been fixed in one of the patches.

[vishniac]

I back Modo in what he said.

For popbooming, I don't know my numbers like you, old grunts!
But I think with children creches and tree farms, we should already boost our cities after the current stagnation. And hampering mineral support would be bad when I call for a fleet of formers.
I'd say:
Plant forests! Build tree farms!
Plant forests! Build tree farms!
Plant forests! Build tree farms!
Plant forests! Build tree farms!

If we stop building units to build facilities, let's not go Dem and diminish our industrial cpacity when it's needed at its fullest!

[Googlie]

For us, Dem + Planned + a creche gives a pop increase to a base every turn so long as there are 2 surplus nuts being produced .. up to the hab limit

For coastal bases, it's actually more efficient to plant kelp (3 nuts) than farms or tree farms and work them with trawlers

A condensor on a farm is often thought better than a tree farm as well, esp as it affects contiguous tiles as well. But where we have a load of forest tiles already being worked, then a tree farm does make sense.

Big advantage of a tree farm, of course is not only the 1 extra nut, but the extra psych and econ boost (as well as the contribution to ecological balance)

But they are pricy, at 3 credits per turn to upkeep

[wuy3]

3 cred per facility seems too expensive

[Modo44]

Tree Farms give an economy bonus, so there goes a part of that. Worm hunting should be keeping us out of cash trouble soon enough. I think the production boost with the increased population is well worth the investment.

That being said, I have my doubts about us being able to win peacefully. It still seems like the better option, but... Some random thoughts, taking a look at the last turn's completed save.

Most of our home bases are terribly underdeveloped. This means that while having production, we lack the cash and the labs needed to actually get things done. To really compete, we would need to bring most our bases up to speed quickly. Since some of them are at zero minerals already, with more upkeep to be dealt with, it seems infrastructure building will be a pain.

It looks to me as though we are much better prepared to conquer well developed bases, than to develop our own. Those are often made exclusively for unit production. About the only problem here is, we are out of targets that are both easy and juicy. Lal can be taken, but his bases are in bad shape structure-wise. Yang has great bases, but those only really start with Drone Mound and Unity Lair, and they come with a s*itload of units to boot.

It still seems that one option (after or while we popboom with some bases) is to attack Yang. Another one (almost as good in my opinion) is to ally with Yang against a human faction (or just aid him quietly), using the Hive as a very strong buffer.

I think we should try switching off Fundy, to see if Yang will be nicer to us then. I would even try running Frontier instead of Democracy, to make him happy. In the long run, the slower rowth would seem like a good investment to me. And if it does not work out with Yang after a few turns of running Frontier, we can still go Demo and popboom like crazy.

[wuy3]

ya but didn't we just go to war with Yang a while ago? I don't think he'll forgive us... err ever? Doesn't the AI keep a grudge till the very end if you cross them once?

[Modo44]

Originally posted by wuy3
ya but didn't we just go to war with Yang a while ago? I don't think he'll forgive us... err ever? Doesn't the AI keep a grudge till the very end if you cross them once?

It seems he might attack us again, despite the truce. This is why we have not declared war last turn, but are waiting instead. If he (re)starts the conflict, nobody will hold a grudge agains us.

If Yang leaves us alone, we can try to become friends with him (or just "friends"), while popbooming in safety.

Both possibilities are good in my opinion. However, I think we do need to go back to war at some point in the not-so-distant future. It does not have to be with the Hive, though...

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Modo44
Another one (almost as good in my opinion) is to ally with Yang against a human faction (or just aid him quietly), using the Hive as a very strong buffer.

I think we should try switching off Fundy, to see if Yang will be nicer to us then. I would even try running Frontier instead of Democracy, to make him happy. In the long run, the slower rowth would seem like a good investment to me. And if it does not work out with Yang after a few turns of running Frontier, we can still go Demo and popboom like crazy.

At the moment Yang doesn't even want to talk to us. What are the odds then we could be in a pact with him in only a few years? And even if we could sign a pact, how long would that hold after we switch to democratic? Which is absolutely necessary for improving our economy. I playtested until 2173 yesterday, and under democratic our population grew to 66. If we'd stay Fundy or Frontier, it would stick on 57. Those nine extra citizens more than make up for the lost minerals due to extra support costs.

[wuy3]

Yes I agree with Maniac on the anti-Yang stance. Although hes going to be a good buffer I don't think its worth the trouble and I'm almost positive it won't make any difference when war breaks out cause the Morgans and Gaians (maybe even the DA) allied together will just roll past his units and gain exp along the way.

That or I've been betrayed by the AI too many times in singleplayer to trust them anymore.

[Modo44]

Well, since Morgan accepted the truce, and even payed the 98 credits, I guess Yang is going down by an unanimous vote. I mean, soldiers simply must do something, so that they do not get bored.

But, I would still try to delay this war by a few turns. If we can do that safely, I mean. The reason is simple, and rather obvious. The AI should commit resources against the others for as long as we can make it. Yang might be amassing units against us, but those are the ones that were going our way anyway. As long as there is no Vendetta, most of his new efforts go elsewhere (or so I hope).

I would like to propose the following:

• We prepare a quick 3-base takeover (the 2 on "our" territory and the land choke point).
• We wait for the Hive to give us the reason to do it.

This would mean shifting most of the Air Force to Minas Tirith, loading up another Transport with offensive units, and building/upgrading to some Interceptors. Then we would wait for Yang to declare Vendetta when we ask him to leave. What do the members of the Junta think?