Major Policy Shift under consideration

[Googlie]

I thought it preferable to start a new thread for the whole discussion re a Yang or Zac vendetta, a Morgan pact or an Isolationist posture.

So much might hang on this decision that it needs to be fully aired.

Long-term pact with Morgan

This will likely, with hindsight, be regarded as the gamewinner for either ourselves or Morgan

If we take it as deep as I've suggested (to the level-9 techs), then left standing at the end of it will be ourselves, Morgan, and such AI submissives/pactmates or submissive human teams as we allow

After break-up, we will either try to conquer Morgan (a tough task by then) or else, if we have sustained the AI in a submissive role, try for a diplomatic victory (being declared sepreme leader)

The Morgan team might balk at being asked to commit so early (after all, they have only met the Hive and ourselves)

The playing enjoyment of the Angels and the Gaians might be lessened as a result of our joining with Morgan (and especially if we also co-opt Zak and Lal - much as the Hive-Drone alliance so early on decided the result in ACDG-II). Question: Do we care?

Pacting with Zak and possibly Lal as well

We have built our short term strategy on the expectation that we would lead a succession of probes thru Zakland, pilfering techs as we go.

Yet Yang has the tech lead, and both Zak and Lal have been forthcoming in trading techs (after all, we got GeneSplicing, Ethical Calculus and Secrets thru trades with the AI)

So let's discuss whether we should Pact with Zak (but still infiltrate, in case at any time he calls off the pact) and also with Lal (with similar infiltration)

This strategy might call for us to work 4-way research with Morgan as well, feeding Zak techs so that he will always be at the forefront of research. except, when he gets a tech that leads to a Special Project - that he starts - he won't trade it. (But the AI never uses crawlers to rush SP's so we could prolly catch up anyway)

Battling Yang versus battling Zak

This change of focus would lead us into a vendetta with Yang (it may be Zak's price for a pact). is this good or bad?

Consider:

Yang has the current tech lead, and has a tech we badly want - Doc Loyalty. To steal it will almost certainly trigger vendetta

Yang has some of the prime real estate on Planet - the Monsoon Jungle - which will default to the Gaians as they take the fight to the AI

We could talk up a good story if we joined with the Gaians in their fight with Yang, opening that famous "second front"

We'd be less threatening to the other factions (Angels and Gaians - presumably, if Pacted with Morgan, they'd be in our confidence) if we took on - with them - the strongest power rather than the weaker Zak or Lal

It'd be simpler to move overland with armies and probe consorts than ferrying them laboriously over the sea to Zak

Thoughts everyone?

[Kassiopeia]

Committing to a pact with the Morganites until level 9 is appealing, but it's also very dangerous. We can't, at the current time, be in any way certain it'll pay off, and that we'll be able to contain them. Letting Morgan bloat does not sound like a good idea.

Because of that, a better idea might be to first pick off the AIs (first Yang with the Gaians, then the Uni and the PKs, perhaps with the Gaians as well), and let Morgan grow a bit. When Morgan has grown, after the AIs are gone, we'd have two more than willing humans to take out Morgan with.

The problem with this strat is that after this we'd probably end up facing a Gaian/Angel axis vs. us - we'd have to be sure we could get either one of them to ally with *us*, but all things considered, the Gaians and Angels would both have a better chance against each other than in a singular battle against us.... most troublesome.

[Snoddasmannen]

This is a very difficult decision to make, especially for me since I play with rather slow tech advances and rarely make it past level 6 techs. So I have no idea what level 9 tech wars are like. I'm sorry I can't be more helpful right now.

But anyway, I have some questions.

The Hive have some serious defences, can we make headway through those fortifications? How many rovers would it take? How many would be needed to make Zak vs. Yang submissive?

Will we break the pact before tech level 9 if we have the others nice and submissive before then?

How do human teams typically react in MP-games if they realize they have no fighting chance?

We will need to settle the Hive or Uni issue next turn preferably, right?

[Primus Pilus]

My belief is that Yang is the predominant threat geographically and tech wise for this stage of the game. I have previously stated on several occasions that a policy of Yang containment, coupled with tactical placement of Sea Bases, will prepare our invasion plans once we get Missile Weps. I don't like the idea of a protracted war against Yang with only Impactor.

I support Probe actions against Zak/PK, but we should not launch an attack until we get Cruiser Trannies.

Throw some bones to Lady Dee in her efforts against Yang, but not formal support until we are ready.

50-50 on Morgan Pact. We would obviously crush them in a one-in-one, but a Diplomatic Victory against us is a distinct possibility once we start war operations.

[Zeiter]

I'm beginning to definitely like the idea of pacting with Zak/Lal instead of invading them. Even though we'll have to go into vendetta with Yang, we don't have to go on the offensive until we are ready. Meanwhile, we can probe from Yang even more tech than from Zak. The Gaians might also see this as an act of goodwill, and the other human teams might actually root for us to topple Yang the behemoth (whereas, invading Zak would look more like we are bullying a defenseless neighbor.) A Yang vendetta would also work perfectly with all of the negative propaganda we've been throwing out lately in the Phalanx. In fact, I'm now firmly convinced that this is what we should do.

Edit: I just want to add this: My initial support for a Zak invasion was predicated on the estimation that Yang would probably have plasma armor by the time we could do anything against him, and that Zak would be the better researcher. Because those two assumptions have turned out to be false, I think I'd like to switch to what many others were advocating initially, which is, make our target Yang.

Also, if this is what we decide to do, then we'll probably need to change the production in Vladivostok from Transport to something more useful.

As for the Morgan pact...tough decision. Perhaps we should keep the idea open, but wait just a bit until we finalize anything. We can tell the Morganites that we're deliberating on the prospect, so as to:
1. Feel them out as to how they would feel about it.
2. Dissuade them from running into someone else's arms, so to speak.

[Googlie]

As I posted under the 2143 moves thread, Yang is only one commlink away from calling elections and being elected Governor (the vote will be between Yang and Lal). He has a gunfoil out there somewhere, looking.

That means that when he does, everyone gets everyone else's commlinks.

I think that now, with Morgan having the turn and us next, Kassiopeia needs to burn the wires setting up deals and trades. Our tech costs are not going to go up until we have discovered Ecol Eng (and remember, if everyone gets every tech then that #yourtechs/#all techs becomes virtually the same for everyone. It's when one player has a huge tech lead that it becomes crippling vis-a-vis the other teams)

So maybe it's time to send the Gaians the "take it or leave it" on EthCalc (and maybe get both the Prog Psych - if they have it - and Soc Psych for our Doc Flex, and a huge IOU for Ethcalc)

And sound out Morgan on a deep pact, but in the meantime get Biogen and Ind Econ from them for Gene Splicing, Ethcalc and (eventually) Ecol Eng, plus, from them, Env Econ when they get it plus a similar promise to hands off the CDF

As for the Angels, as i said elsewhere i doubt whther they (yet) have HEC, but maybe Doc Flex (now) in exchange for it (when they get it) and Gene Splicing for Doc Loyalty, if they have it or if they feel they can get it from Yang

But in a day or so we'll know better what Zak has to offer.

(My only fear with a Morgan pact is that they are so ................. (is slow and indecisive the phrase?) ....... boring)

[Kassiopeia]

Ehh, so let me get this straightened up.

Gaians:

- Prog Psych and Soc Psych for Doc Flex
- Something for EthCalc

Morganites:

- Ask them how a pact would sound like
- BioGen and IndEcon for Gene Splicing

... and I get with what comes next. Give them EthCalc for EnvEcon? EcolEng? Huh?!

Angels:

DocFlex for HEC (that's a level 2 tech for a level 3 tech? will they agree? considering the military importance, perhaps)
GeneSplicing for DocLoyalty (if they have it, if they can get it from Yang)

[Kassiopeia]

Also, how about the_arginine's propositions in the ambassadorial forum? The one about sponsoring probe teams and HEC?

[Kassiopeia]

HMm. The Gaians don't have Soc Psych, they've been asking us for that.

[Kassiopeia]

Meh, Googlie went offline. I'll be back after five hours to send out some messages, but if you haven't been here quite yet to clarify everything, I'll just do an "offer us what you can" on the techs I'm uncertain about.

This diplomat needs some sleep

[Googlie]

Originally posted by Kassiopeia
HMm. The Gaians don't have Soc Psych, they've been asking us for that.

No - it's the other way round (remember the Doc Flex laugh we had?)

Posted in thre Embassy by Illuminatus
Ethical Calculus is one of our priorities, and if you are willing to trade it, we can provide you with Doctrine Flexibility and Social Psych before this decade ends, allowing you to pursue other goals

[Kassiopeia]

Oh, I see. (Like I said, needs sleep)

How about that trade with Morgan where your wording just threw me completely off?

[Googlie]

Originally posted by Kassiopeia
Ehh, so let me get this straightened up.

Gaians:

- Prog Psych and Soc Psych for Doc Flex
- Something for EthCalc

see my post below re the Gaians having Soc Psych. And for Eth Calc we'd want ec's, or a future tech IoU, plus their commitment that they won't build the CDF

Morganites:

- Ask them how a pact would sound like
- BioGen and IndEcon for Gene Splicing

... and I get with what comes next. Give them EthCalc for EnvEcon? EcolEng? Huh?!

BioGen and Ind Econ for Gene Splicing and EthCalc (plus their commitment not to build the CDF), but to include a future trade of our Ecol Eng (when we get it) - but they will prolly research it concurrently with us) for their Environmental Economics when they get that (which they'd presumably switch to as soon as we gave them Ecol Eng). That would be a classic leapfrog manoever

Angels:

DocFlex for HEC (that's a level 2 tech for a level 3 tech? will they agree? considering the military importance, perhaps)
GeneSplicing for DocLoyalty (if they have it, if they can get it from Yang)

No - Docflex is the same level (2) as HEC (2)

And while GS is a level 3 compared to Doc loyalty's level 2, we suggest the imbalance in their favour 'cos they are prolly going to have to steal it from Yang

[Googlie]

Originally posted by Kassiopeia
Also, how about the_arginine's propositions in the ambassadorial forum? The one about sponsoring probe teams and HEC?

I'd reply to that one in the context of our "flying the kite' to see if they are interested in a much deeper pact, with all sorts of tech exchanges, agreements to parcel out the SPs between us, subsidized research, etc etc

[Kassiopeia]

Okay, I think I got it. Tired people make stupid mistakes though, so I'll have them out first thing in the morning (which is, oh my god, only four hours away! damn you, cicardian-rhythm-destroying week-long vacations!)