Announcement

**Zeiter** · October 11, 2004, 19:19

I have some speculation as far as Morgan's fear mongering: perhaps they are trying to draw us into an unequal alliance with them? Or perhaps they are trying to get us paranoid about the Gaians and Data Angels so that the Morgans get left to themselves?

As for giving up map data to the Morganites: NO WAY!!!!! They probably just want that so they can infiltrate us.

As for game-wide overall strategy, I originally advocated allying with the Gaians. Now I'm not so sure. The diplomacy has been rather shaky.

What if we just pursue a general isolationist policy? If we aren't allied with anyone, we'll seem less threatening. Perhaps the other three will be too busy with trilateral intrigue to worry about us. Meanwhile, we feast on the Zak and Lal continents.

**Googlie** · October 11, 2004, 22:06

Re: Current diplomatic situation and future speculation: MY 2141

Originally posted by Kassiopeia
I'm feeling like I'm losing the big picture with debates going on between the thread relations threads, so I'm setting this up so that we can pull together all this to get a clearer view of our foreign relations.

Good summary

- it will be a good baseline to work from

The deals we are planning or have proposed (Important!):
- Sell the Gaians infilitration info on the Hiverians for various sums of credits

They have politely declined as they expect themselves to infiltrate the Hive

The deals we have been proposed by others:
- None that I'm aware of right now

we know that Zak will sell us Ethical calculus for 100 ec's

What's the big question is, with the possibility of a Data Angel/Gaian alliance, is what the heck is our game-wide strategy? We need one, and badly.

I agree. All too often in PBEMs I see the pacts being set up almost in order of meeting, and it looks like the Angels/Gaians have done that.

Our choices seem to be:

Run an independent policy with a series of 3 bilateral Treaties/Pacts
Get into bed with Morgan to create a 2 faction powerhouse - our military and their commerce
Get into bed with the Gaians and:
>push out the Angels if they are already in bed with Dee
>join the Angels for a menage-a-trois if they are already in bed with the Gaians
>if the Gaians have no current ties, then create a 2-faction powerhouse with our conventional prowess and their indigneous prowess
Link with both Morgan and the Gaians to shut out the Angels, then deal with Morgan and Gaia later
Commit to nothing 'till we've met the Angels, then link with them against Morgan and the Gaians

My thoughts on this - the first step is to take Zak before anyone else does

I agree

and wreck the PKs.

Again, I agree

This will put a hell of a lot of heat on us, however, so we may need to secure an ally before putting that plan to action. Perhaps have them help us nominally and spare the spoils.

Maybe help more than nominally? Energy Credits would be good. tech leapfrogging would be good

So who do we ally with? The Data Angels seem an unlikely option so far

I agree - we just don't know anything about them yet

The Gaians and Morganites are relatively close neighbours. The Gaians look like a good choice - they are land connected,

with the Hive, but not with us. We met only because R-112 was teleported via a dimensional rift

we can help them with Yang,

They declined our offer of help

they can help us with Zak.

I'm not sure how, as they are some ways removed - and haven't met yet

If the Gaians are allied with the Angels, we need to either choose to ally with Morgan or try to disrupt the Gaia/Angels axis. The latter would require the Gaians to consider us a far better deal, since I think a smear campaign or a similar more cloak & daggerish method is too risky and has low probability of success.

But the Gaians themselves would need to see us as less of a long term threat than the Angels, better able to help them in the short run, and able to plug the gaps that they have in their faction characteristics.

If I were the Gaians, I would see these exemplified more by the Angels than by Sparta

If we end up with the Morganites, they are hardly a lot of use with war-waging. We could, however, use them as an energy generator of sorts, and gift them some bases we take in the inevitable vendettas against the AI factions to draw away heat from us and to help them develop alongside us. In return, of course, they would provide us with the latest toys and all the money we need.

A Sparta - Morgan alliance makes so much more sense, as we are eternally cash-poor (being unable to run wealth) and they are offensively challenged (at least until the advent of clean reactors) but are a money-making machine

However, currently, our friendship with the Gaians is in a much better shape than with the Morganites.

I disagree. Just reflect how pissed off we were when the Gaians asked for the "25ec's for the Angels' commlink" to be taken off the table

To cement a friendship with the Morganites, we might be better off just agreeing to their current Treaty proposal and giving them the combined world map they want.

They haven't asked for a "combined world map." They have asked for screenies of future explorations by the SCC Hunter, or another ship if the Hunter gets sunk or returns to base

A slight concession, if you will.

I could see a compromise - agree to Hunter screenies, but future 'observer" status on other vessels to be negotiated and not automatic. Not that big a concession from us if we decide to use the Hunter to explore Morgan's coastline (and maybe we should tell them that)

Their slow moves in the diplo forum are unnerving, though.

They are actually no worse than the Gaians, and maybe when we have more to talk about and exchange they'll become more garrulous

It might actually be good for our faction if we do find that several of us are leaning towards a Morgan alliance and other towards a Gaian alliance (with maybe a third group of "go-it-aloners" or "let's wait till we contact the Angels before we cement anything"

(of course there's that famous purported "shadow group" that want to pact with the Hive and run a domination agenda right away!!)

Kass, all in all a good thought-provoking summary

G

GLIE

**Snoddasmannen** · October 12, 2004, 02:39

Great discussion guys.

I'm beginning to like the idea of cooperating with the Morgans. Let them feed us cash and we can share with them the techs we steal from the Uni and maybe even gift them a base or two from the war effort, like you suggest Kassiopeia. And like Googlie says, our skills complement each other so the alliance is a natural one.

As for our position towards the Gaian / Angel cooperation (which I am carelessly assuming), it should be one of presumed future hostility, but peace and limited cooperation until further notice. If they figure we are pacted with the Morgans, they could very well attempt to attack them, cutting off our energy supply. We could protect them, and this would place the Morgans in a position of military dependency towards us.

This is just a dream scenario

We really need to talk to the Angels before making any such long-term decisions.

Oh, and observation status on the Hunter should not be given away for free with the Treaty, make them pay an annual fee for board and lodging. When we tire of the observer, he can always fall overboard in a tragic accident.

**KrysiasKrusader** · October 13, 2004, 18:00

Originally posted by Zeiter

As for game-wide overall strategy, I originally advocated allying with the Gaians. Now I'm not so sure. The diplomacy has been rather shaky.

Yep... I tend to concur here, as well. Not that I like doing so. But it seems to be the case.

Originally posted by Zeiter
What if we just pursue a general isolationist policy? If we aren't allied with anyone, we'll seem less threatening. Perhaps the other three will be too busy with trilateral intrigue to worry about us.

Problem with that is we run a very real risk of being left behind technologically, as well as diplomatically, vis a vis the player factions.

As much as I am dissapointed with how fast talks are progressing, I'd rather still feel things out. It would be nice to get some kind of gleaning on what the others would consider, and how far they'd be willing, to cooperate with us.

I don't mean on short term treaties and tech exchanges; but on where they see things going and what would they consider to do to alter any of it. But this requires forming a rapport with someone else in another faction. Elsewise, people won't divulge such information.

**KrysiasKrusader** · October 13, 2004, 18:13

Re: Re: Current diplomatic situation and future speculation: MY 2141

Originally posted by Googlie
All too often in PBEMs I see the pacts being set up almost in order of meeting, and it looks like the Angels/Gaians have done that.

That's because those two have an immediate advantage over the rest. The opportunity to zoom ahead of the others in; technology, exploration, and military planification. It's something that is hard not to do otherwise. It also gives one a sense of security on one flank, thus being able to concentrate (perhaps two factions) resources against another. It's pretty powerful. That's why you see me harp about diplomacy being so strong all the time.

I, myself, thought that we could achieve this with the Gaians. But it seems that's not to be...

**KrysiasKrusader** · October 14, 2004, 23:05

Oh yea. Here's (*bump*) one of the threads I was alluding to...

Gotta trash this one out a little more guys...

**Googlie** · October 14, 2004, 23:52

OK - while we're waiting for the Gaians to respond, let's examine what we know about the political situation.

Morgan

Background to the meeting

So far in the game, Morgan has only met us and the Hive (and us only in 2141)

They must be feeling isolated and somewhat paranoid (witness their comments to us about the Gaians/Angels hatching plots. As an aside, I wonder if, for example, they'd met the Gaians first if they would have asked them what they knew about the Angels-Sparta alliance???)

My guess is that what they've got by way of techs they've researched themselves.

Then we arrive on the scene (It was ironic that the turn before we met I left that diplo window open. I believe that in their paranoia, they think that we might have actually been able to contact them earlier - cf the welcome in the Embassy from Whoha "and any Spartan people that were stuck aboard that gunship for who knows how many turns " - but chose not to, but accidentally left that trade diplo window open with all our techs on offer.

So they are looking at us quizzically. We're all they've got right now, 'cos the Hive isn't talking to anyone, and so the dance has begun.

A Morgan-Sparta Alliance

Who would this most benefit? Initially, there would be much to gain for both parties, as is being evidenced by the early trade feelers.

They can get from us exploration information, we can be a conduit for technology trades from third parties, and provide a fair measure of protection should the need arise.

They can assist us with technological research, and with energy credits for thos rush builds that we need so vitally so as to offset our industry penalty.

But over the longer term the balance shifts dramatically in their favour. There will come a fulcrum point when we no longer can present any threat to them militarily. they will have clean fusion or quantum powered neutronium-armoured garrisons, and will be sheltering behind Perimeter Defences and Tachyon Shields. Even our Elite Fusion shard units will be unable to dent these much. So they will simply hide behind "Fortress Morgan" and Transcend out of our clutches.

So we either have to keep them weak, with a series of on-and-off treaties and vendettas, or else decide early on that they are a target for elimination, takeover or enslavement. (And if we opt for the second choice, we may still have to pursue the first option to make the takeover effective)

So my reading is:

They can be a good partner in the next 20 - 30 turns or so, while research is burgeoning and while we have a monopoly on contacts

By around 2160 or so we need to find an excuse to enter into a limited objectives Vendetta (maybe capture a base or 2 of theirs, then let them sue for peace with some goodies thrown our way, and live off that for 20 years or so. Make sure that any peace settlement has a high maintenance cost for them (ie indemnities of around a couple of hundred or more ec's per turn coming our way - we have to stop them mass upgrading defenders, and rushing defenses and other infrastructure)

Around the turn of the century we should be prepared to take them out completely, before they get clean fusion and neutronium armored defenders.

Why this timetable?

'Cos I think that from 2150 to 2160 or so we'll be preoccupied with the Uni, followed shortly thereafter (with prolly some overlap) with the PK's. We'll need a couple of decades to lick our wounds and get some infrastructure in place in the captured bases, and then we can start pinpricking Morgan.

We'll be stron enough to inflict some damage and prollyt capture a base or 2, but I doubt that we could go the whole way in the 2180's or so.

Then we can rebuild, upgrade (and maybe really develop our Airforce) with Morgan's reparations.

But I suggest we take Morgan out before we go after the Angels and Gaians - and maybe even join with the Gaians to carve up the juicy Yang during that period when we are cultivating Morgan (2180 - 2200 ish)

2142 -2150: Infiltrate Zak and build up our invasion fleet
2150 - 2160: Subjugate Zak
2160 - 2175 - take out the PK's
2175 - 2180 - Skirmish with Morgan, then sign a Truce
2180 - 2200 - rebuild, rearm and prepare - maybe concurrently with waging Vendetta with the Hive at the side of the Gaians
2200 - remove Morgan from the game

(If only it were so simple in practice)

**Zeiter** · October 15, 2004, 18:59

Yes, I definitely agree: Zak, then Lal, then exploit and/or invade Morgan, then Hive, and then on to victory.

So, how would we rate these priorities in order from most urgent to least urgent?

*Subjugate Zak
*Popboom
*Crawler whoring our bases to at least 16 min.
*Snatch an SP or two
*Expand our # of cities
*Probe defence
*Cheap drone control
*Advanced terraforming (more formers, boreholes, etc.)

I would say:

1. Cheap drone control
2. Probe defence
3. Crawler-whore our bases
4. Subjugate Zak
5. Snatch an SP or two (if possible)
6. Expand # of cities
7. Advanced terraforming
8. Popboom

**Maniac** · October 15, 2004, 19:28

Originally posted by Zeiter
*Crawler whoring our bases to at least 16 min.

Question: does this include first building some more formers?

**Googlie** · October 15, 2004, 19:31

I'd be inclined to think of it more as "what's on our critical path"

and would answer:

The Citizen's Defense Force SP - I see that as absolutely critical. We can sustain all sorts of field casualties, but we need a secure base, with - always - best armor trance, then trance AAA defenders behind that 100% defence bonus perimeter

Doctrine Air Power - with the prohibition agaisnt choppers attacking bases (and the nonbuild of the Cloudbase Academy), conventional airforces are going to be gamewinners

The Maritime Control Center SP - we need a navy to transport our forces and project our power, and naval yards in every coastal base, the +2 morale for naval units, and the 2 extra movement points confer a huge advantage

Fusion Power - even our elite troops will be cannon fodder if we're fighting with fission against a faction with fusion

Sentient Resonance - I'd rather have this tech than a combo of Advanced Spaceflight (level 13 Shard weapons) and Matter Compression (level-8 Neutronium Armor). it gives a level 12 weapon and a level 8 armor, but with a +25% bonus - on both sides - in psi combat. One big advantage of the other 2 techs, though, is that they are the prereqs to Super Tensile Solids, which give hab Domes (grow beyond size 14) but, more importantly, the Space Elevator SP, the ultimate in projection of power

But I don't see the game getting much past the level-10 techs (of which Super Tensile solids is one)

And once a critical path is defined, then the pieces fall into place

thus, gigalots of crawlers are essential (for SP building, prototyping, mineral whoring, ect etc); formers are essential (for the terain that the crawlers will be working), etc

**Zeiter** · October 15, 2004, 19:39

Originally posted by Maniac

Question: does this include first building some more formers?

Probably, considering the lack of forests and mines in our territory at the moment. Although maybe we'll get lucky and those forests near the crater bases will start growing like weeds.

Edit: That's a good list, Googlie. I would also add the Command Nexus and the Cyborg Factory to that list of SPs that we might want to snag. In the case of the Command Nexus, if we play our cards right, we have a good chance of snagging it. 3 crawlers + 2 AAs + one turn of production at OA would complete it. I don't think any of the human teams have it yet, and they probably don't have much interest in getting doc:loyalty anyway, (although the Gaians have the opportunity, if they can get a lucky probe steal). So, I suggest, before the end of the decade, we prepare for a probe raping of Yang and a 1 turn crawler build of the Command Nexus. No?

**Googlie** · October 15, 2004, 20:26

Didn't we decide just to let Yang build it, then capture the base?

Hmm - maybe not (he's got it going at the Hive - 10 turns to complete - and at Fecundity Tower - 15 to complete)

**Zeiter** · October 15, 2004, 21:05

Oh, only 10 turns? Cool. That sounds like a plan then

I had no idea that Yang was already building it.

**Googlie** · October 15, 2004, 21:14

But I doubt that we'll be able to take out their HQ that easily (might need Shrek and Fiona for that!!)

Announcement

Current diplomatic situation and future speculation: MY 2141

Current diplomatic situation and future speculation: MY 2141

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