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Originally posted by Zeiter
I've messed around in the unit workshop, done the math, and come to the conclusion that Spartan units are the shiznit.
Let's say we're running demo/planned/knowledge:
At this setting, our industry is normal, and our research is likely quite good. But behold! Even at this SE setting, we can get elite troops! A trained unit built in a command center, and then moved over to a monolith gets you an elite unit. (trained gets it up to disciplined, inherent spartan morale gets it to hardened, command center gets it to commando, monolith gets it to elite.)
That means that at this SE setting, we can get
an elite 4-1-1 for 30 min (increased slightly because of the necessary trained ability.)
an elite 4-1-2 for 40 min
an elite 6-1-1 for 30 min
an elite 6-1-2 for 60 min
Let's say we go fundy/planned/knowledge
At this setting, our ind is normal, our research is still decent, and our probe rating is normal. Plus, getting elites now are even easier. No trained ability necessary (assuming a monolith is nearby). Thus:
an elite 4-1-1 is 20 min
an elite 4-1-2 is 30 min
an elite 6-1-1 is 20 min
an elite 6-1-2 is 50 min
If no monolith is nearby, then the first set of prices apply instead.
Okay, let's say we want to go all-out war with PS/planned/power
Production is -20%. This may seem bad, but it is balanced out by other factors:
Support is a whopping +4! That's 4 units OR up to base size for free! Not only can we pump out those 6-1-1's until the cows come home, but we pump them out more quickly because we are hardly paying any support costs on other units (like formers and such).
Police is a whopping +3! That means we get to use 3 units as police, with police effect doubled. This not only keeps drone riots down in the core bases, but it also makes newly-captured bases much more productive from the very first turn, which can be essential if you need to get reinforcements in QUICK!
Morale is a whopping +4! With a command center, units are elite right out of the gate, no monolith or trained ability necessary. With the command nexus, we can pump elites out of newly conquered bases with the snap of a finger (scary, isn't it!) Prices are as follows for these elites:
4-1-1 is 24 min
4-1-2 is 36 min
6-1-1 is 24 min
6-1-2 is 60 min
Those 6-1-1's are still cheap at this production (24 min), and they function with the same movement and FAR better combat than the other factions' 6-1-2's, which, for them, cost:
+3 ind (Yang under planned/wealth) - 35 min - these troops will be low morale
+2 ind - 40 min
+1 ind - 45 min
normal ind - 50 min
Sure, under this PS/planned/power setup, it is economic paralysis, but this is an all-out, short term SE setting for nothing else but WAR! And with a decent infrastructure in place (a few size 7, 16 min/turn bases) this war machine is a monster!
I've messed around in the unit workshop, done the math, and come to the conclusion that Spartan units are the shiznit.
Let's say we're running demo/planned/knowledge:
At this setting, our industry is normal, and our research is likely quite good. But behold! Even at this SE setting, we can get elite troops! A trained unit built in a command center, and then moved over to a monolith gets you an elite unit. (trained gets it up to disciplined, inherent spartan morale gets it to hardened, command center gets it to commando, monolith gets it to elite.)
That means that at this SE setting, we can get
an elite 4-1-1 for 30 min (increased slightly because of the necessary trained ability.)
an elite 4-1-2 for 40 min
an elite 6-1-1 for 30 min
an elite 6-1-2 for 60 min
Let's say we go fundy/planned/knowledge
At this setting, our ind is normal, our research is still decent, and our probe rating is normal. Plus, getting elites now are even easier. No trained ability necessary (assuming a monolith is nearby). Thus:
an elite 4-1-1 is 20 min
an elite 4-1-2 is 30 min
an elite 6-1-1 is 20 min
an elite 6-1-2 is 50 min
If no monolith is nearby, then the first set of prices apply instead.
Okay, let's say we want to go all-out war with PS/planned/power
Production is -20%. This may seem bad, but it is balanced out by other factors:
Support is a whopping +4! That's 4 units OR up to base size for free! Not only can we pump out those 6-1-1's until the cows come home, but we pump them out more quickly because we are hardly paying any support costs on other units (like formers and such).
Police is a whopping +3! That means we get to use 3 units as police, with police effect doubled. This not only keeps drone riots down in the core bases, but it also makes newly-captured bases much more productive from the very first turn, which can be essential if you need to get reinforcements in QUICK!
Morale is a whopping +4! With a command center, units are elite right out of the gate, no monolith or trained ability necessary. With the command nexus, we can pump elites out of newly conquered bases with the snap of a finger (scary, isn't it!) Prices are as follows for these elites:
4-1-1 is 24 min
4-1-2 is 36 min
6-1-1 is 24 min
6-1-2 is 60 min
Those 6-1-1's are still cheap at this production (24 min), and they function with the same movement and FAR better combat than the other factions' 6-1-2's, which, for them, cost:
+3 ind (Yang under planned/wealth) - 35 min - these troops will be low morale
+2 ind - 40 min
+1 ind - 45 min
normal ind - 50 min
Sure, under this PS/planned/power setup, it is economic paralysis, but this is an all-out, short term SE setting for nothing else but WAR! And with a decent infrastructure in place (a few size 7, 16 min/turn bases) this war machine is a monster!
Originally posted by Maniac
Another tactic we can use once units become more expensive is to build "shells" (eg high morale 1-1-1 units) and then upgrade them to the desired model and weapon type upon need. As upgrade cost isn't affected at all by one's Industry rating, upgrading is much more profitable for an Industry-weak faction as the Spartans than for example the Hive with +3 Industry. You get much more extra minerals for the same cash.
Another tactic we can use once units become more expensive is to build "shells" (eg high morale 1-1-1 units) and then upgrade them to the desired model and weapon type upon need. As upgrade cost isn't affected at all by one's Industry rating, upgrading is much more profitable for an Industry-weak faction as the Spartans than for example the Hive with +3 Industry. You get much more extra minerals for the same cash.
Originally posted by Zeiter
Ah, good idea. Elites are great for dealing with native lifeforms too! Cheap scout infantry (10-12 min), even in the late game, are somewhat viable if they are elite (their extra movement point lets them attack first, giving a 3-2 advantage right off. Then the elite status gets another +50%.)
BTW, if anyone needs some practice with the Spartans, or you are just plain bored, or both, or you're hungry for a xenobanana, or whatever, I just finished a good scenario for some Spartan practice.
Is this shameless plugging for my scenario? - Yes
Will it be good practice playing it? - probably
Will you enjoy playing it? - probably
Will this scenario turn you into a Yang-hater for life? - Hehehe, there's a good chance!
Anyways, you can find it here:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...hreadid=117297
Ah, good idea. Elites are great for dealing with native lifeforms too! Cheap scout infantry (10-12 min), even in the late game, are somewhat viable if they are elite (their extra movement point lets them attack first, giving a 3-2 advantage right off. Then the elite status gets another +50%.)
BTW, if anyone needs some practice with the Spartans, or you are just plain bored, or both, or you're hungry for a xenobanana, or whatever, I just finished a good scenario for some Spartan practice.
Is this shameless plugging for my scenario? - Yes
Will it be good practice playing it? - probably
Will you enjoy playing it? - probably
Will this scenario turn you into a Yang-hater for life? - Hehehe, there's a good chance!
Anyways, you can find it here:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...hreadid=117297
Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
Nice thread, Maniac
Might I suggest we go for the Cyborg Factory as soon as is humanly possible? That SP plus the Command Nexus or a Command Centre will let us produce elites with no need for special SE choices or monoliths.
By the way, Zeiter, I have to say that that is a bloody hard scenario (although I haven't found version 2.0 to be as impossible as you said it was). Thankfully, I now have Impact weapons while Yang is still limited to Lasers; I need only hold him off while I put the new unit models into production.
Nice thread, Maniac
Might I suggest we go for the Cyborg Factory as soon as is humanly possible? That SP plus the Command Nexus or a Command Centre will let us produce elites with no need for special SE choices or monoliths.By the way, Zeiter, I have to say that that is a bloody hard scenario (although I haven't found version 2.0 to be as impossible as you said it was). Thankfully, I now have Impact weapons while Yang is still limited to Lasers; I need only hold him off while I put the new unit models into production.
Originally posted by Zeiter
Good going on holding back Yang! He's a real challenge. It'll be quite a feat if you manage to completely topple him. Let me know how your game goes.
Good going on holding back Yang! He's a real challenge. It'll be quite a feat if you manage to completely topple him. Let me know how your game goes.
Originally posted by Googlie
well, I'm at 2333 as Sparta, in the first iteration of the challenge, and still hanging in there!!
(I got booted from my 3 bases in 2198 to Borneo, where i've set up 2 bases thus:
It's just a waiting game, though, as yang has nearly all the SP's (I'm building crawlers in my 2 bases to stockpile in a vain attempt to steal transcendence when he gets the Voice)
Look at his satellites, too (and this after an Alpha flare that wiped out some 17 powerstas he'd already built!!:
Who says the AI never builds satellites
I'm not hopeful of winning, as I can't generate cash to upgrade crawlers for the SP, but I'll hang in anyway. We're at peace right now but I just have missile weaponry and he has fusion shards, but my defenders are plasma, with perims and aerospaces, and I have missile arty to keep his bombardments away. It's been quiet now for some 20 turns or so.
G.
well, I'm at 2333 as Sparta, in the first iteration of the challenge, and still hanging in there!!
(I got booted from my 3 bases in 2198 to Borneo, where i've set up 2 bases thus:
It's just a waiting game, though, as yang has nearly all the SP's (I'm building crawlers in my 2 bases to stockpile in a vain attempt to steal transcendence when he gets the Voice)
Look at his satellites, too (and this after an Alpha flare that wiped out some 17 powerstas he'd already built!!:
Who says the AI never builds satellites
I'm not hopeful of winning, as I can't generate cash to upgrade crawlers for the SP, but I'll hang in anyway. We're at peace right now but I just have missile weaponry and he has fusion shards, but my defenders are plasma, with perims and aerospaces, and I have missile arty to keep his bombardments away. It's been quiet now for some 20 turns or so.
G.
Originally posted by Googlie
Yang completed the Voice in 2340, then next turn I got the notice that he was endeavouring to corner the energy market. And I couldn't build the Ascent. So I activated the Scenario Editor and lo and behold only 2 winning conditions - conquest and economic victory
Ah well - more fool me for not reading the thread.
G.
Yang completed the Voice in 2340, then next turn I got the notice that he was endeavouring to corner the energy market. And I couldn't build the Ascent. So I activated the Scenario Editor and lo and behold only 2 winning conditions - conquest and economic victory
Ah well - more fool me for not reading the thread.
G.
Originally posted by Zeiter
Wow, Googlie, you made it that far on the first version? Congratulations! I bet you'd have no problems beating him on version 3.0. But really, I thought that that version was impossibly difficult.
Googlie is GODLIKE! *applause*
Yeah, I disabled transcendence victory and diplomatic victory (as well as coop victory) because I feel that it is sometimes kind of a cheap way to win, snagging the Ascent to Transcendence. But in your case it sounds like you well deserved a victory.
Heh, that's kinda funny, Yang cornering the energy market.
Wow, Googlie, you made it that far on the first version? Congratulations! I bet you'd have no problems beating him on version 3.0. But really, I thought that that version was impossibly difficult.
Googlie is GODLIKE! *applause*
Yeah, I disabled transcendence victory and diplomatic victory (as well as coop victory) because I feel that it is sometimes kind of a cheap way to win, snagging the Ascent to Transcendence. But in your case it sounds like you well deserved a victory.
Heh, that's kinda funny, Yang cornering the energy market.
Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
Well, disabling Diplomatic Victory was certainly a good idea - Yang would win the moment he got MMI. Anyuwya, time to fire up SMACX and play some more...
Well, disabling Diplomatic Victory was certainly a good idea - Yang would win the moment he got MMI. Anyuwya, time to fire up SMACX and play some more...
Originally posted by Googlie
He (Yang) was actually quite awesome - by the time i thought to check the victory conditions he had 30 each of hydros, powersats and nessus stations in orbit, plus 11 ODP's. He was producing 20800 techs per tuen and his research rate was 4500 per tech, plus 7000 ec's per year!!
I played on until 2345 until I realized that there wqas no way I could get to The Hive base and stop his energy monopoly
Here's the 2345 .sav for those interested: http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?...7_Yang2345.zip
Look at his sats (F6) and his SP's (F5), and also his # formers!!
It was actually an interesting game in the latter part to see what the AI built when it had an overwhelming lead (126 bases, 70 with psi gates)
G.
Edit: and check out the basenames - marked lack of imagination on the AI's part, I'd say
G.
He (Yang) was actually quite awesome - by the time i thought to check the victory conditions he had 30 each of hydros, powersats and nessus stations in orbit, plus 11 ODP's. He was producing 20800 techs per tuen and his research rate was 4500 per tech, plus 7000 ec's per year!!
I played on until 2345 until I realized that there wqas no way I could get to The Hive base and stop his energy monopoly
Here's the 2345 .sav for those interested: http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?...7_Yang2345.zip
Look at his sats (F6) and his SP's (F5), and also his # formers!!
It was actually an interesting game in the latter part to see what the AI built when it had an overwhelming lead (126 bases, 70 with psi gates)
G.
Edit: and check out the basenames - marked lack of imagination on the AI's part, I'd say
G.
Originally posted by Zeiter
Wow, I guess setting the priorities to explore and build actually helped. When I scrolled through the F4 screen, most of the things in production were facilities. I'm also convinced that how well an AI plays directly corresponds to how powerful it thinks it is, and how threatened it feels by other factions. The more powerful and less threatened it feels, the less useless garrisons it produces and the more facilities and generally helpful things it produces. I've seen this in several games so far, (such as the AI building satellites and tree farms, and even crawlers) when it is ahead so I think the AI's position on the power chart affects its behavoir.
Wow, I guess setting the priorities to explore and build actually helped. When I scrolled through the F4 screen, most of the things in production were facilities. I'm also convinced that how well an AI plays directly corresponds to how powerful it thinks it is, and how threatened it feels by other factions. The more powerful and less threatened it feels, the less useless garrisons it produces and the more facilities and generally helpful things it produces. I've seen this in several games so far, (such as the AI building satellites and tree farms, and even crawlers) when it is ahead so I think the AI's position on the power chart affects its behavoir.
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