2162 End Turn and 2163 Discussion

[jtsisyoda]

Good job guys. Can we rush the Node in a high-energy base near the center? Impaler Polymers maybe?

[AndiD]

We can try... Impaler Polymers is especially challenged by rehomed units from MorInd. I guess it will be exchanging 7 energy for two minerals from a crawler...

Had you a chance to check whether Yang would withdraw when asked from the midturn save without changing anything else?

[Mead]

Originally posted by AndiD
We can try... Impaler Polymers is especially challenged by rehomed units from MorInd. I guess it will be exchanging 7 energy for two minerals from a crawler...

Had you a chance to check whether Yang would withdraw when asked from the midturn save without changing anything else?

I'll check.

It is my assumption that if we demand withdrawl he will declare vendetta.

Good news on the Foil getting the artifact. Let's get a Net Node made and cash tht baby in. Maybe before we get DAP, but probably after. Is there a chance that it may result in choppers.

I give you some more thoughts after I look at your turn.


Mead

[Mead]

As expected demanding a Hive withdrawl resulted in Yang declaring Vendetta against us. This is not something that we want right now.

After that discovery I took a look at possible rushes.

My suggestions:
We have 116 EC

Agri Narnia 50-12 (6 min) = 38 for Rec Tanks
Hindenberg Hab 48-12 (6 min) = 36 for supply crawler
Micha Archives 44-18 (9 min) = 26 for supply crawler
Paramira 13-2 (1 min) = 11 for former

Total cost 111 EC
Either rush the other 5 EC somewhere or leave for next turn.

Very soon we either need the CDF or a few perimeter defenses. One for Vander, one for Morgan Mussels, one for RFR, one for Impaler. If we can hold out until DAP then we might be able to hold off on the perimeter defenses.


Breaking News: I offered a Pact to Zak and he accepted. Let's do it. It's only a few more EC (I think only 6 more EC income per turn), but extra cash is good. What harm comes from being in a Pact with Uni? Please let me know.


In addition to the permeters let's start a netnode either next turn or the turn after in Impaler. If we can safely do so, lets not let the artifact sit in any of our bases at the end of a turn en route to Impaler until we are ready to connect it to the net node. Neither Sparta not the Gaians need to know that we have an artifact.

I intend to push the DA for a Pact some more.

Mead

[Mead]

Originally posted by AndiD

***

- I will accept Zak's Treaty and Lal's map. I think we maybe should also trade Superconductor for Field Modulation with Zak -- so we don't need _two_ successful probes for Yang for a sure D:AP in six turns.

With the rate Yang is growing (including his lab output) I wouldn't be too surprised if he gets DAP in 5, or maybe even 4 turns. We need to be ready to snag it four turns from now. Let's get our eastern foil moved into a place where it can grab the tech. Let's infiltrate Lal's base with the western foil (if it survives the IOD) and hopefully it will survive the infiltration and take the express trip home (Choke on This would be a nice place for it to return to).

- The land probe backup for Yang in addition to the probe foils makes sense - I'll take a look at the details and whether we can have to use a transport foil to get past Yang's units.

The foil will take one and a third turns to get the into a position where it can unload the artifact. After it unloads the artifact it can pick up two probes and head south towards Yang.

***

- I'm certainly gonna start work on mineral crawlers ASAP.

- I'll take a detailed look at formers and defense and give some screenshot suggestions.

Because of the importance of getting DAP as soon as it becomes available I feel that we should work towards getting it by using both the Gator Boats and Foil/Land Probes. Next turn we should rush the Gator Boat in RFR and send it south as well.


On other matters.

We should get the scout infantry off the monolith near Vander and either move it into Vander another base. If we had more cash and fewer needs I would comsider upgrading it (and the other scout to trance-plasma).

I'm not sure, but I think that the trance plasma in Agri Narnia might have not yet touched a monolith, if it is at 'Green' then tht means it has not. If so then we hould have it touch a monolith and get an upgrade while there is still (I hope) time.

Seeing the mass of bases Sparta has to our west I expect another attack within 3 or 4 turns. Their transport has to go back to the Uni east coast (It probably got there this turn (perhaps next), load up on units coming from the Spartan bases (perhaps they are ready now), then come back to our west coast (maybe as soon as two turns from now). I expect at least 4 missile amphib Elite rovers, perhaps more if Sparta was able to get another transport built and to the eastern Uni coast in time.

Mead

PS.

If you look at the three Uni bases you'll see that each base has a Spartan Probe parked in each one. Our borrowing privildges from the university of Uni has been suspended temporaily.

[paramir]

- Our poorly developed Eastside will be a bit neglected by me - Paramiria will build a former for some road network but that will be it for the next five turns. Since it is the coast immediately adjacent to Sparta, we could use the size 1 base as early warnings...

if it falls and we make it out of this i want another paramiria built

[AndiD]

- Pacted with Zak

- Rushed stuff as suggested above

- Moved the Impaler Polymer crawler to a forest so that we can rush a NetNode in two

- Southern foil moved towards Yang

- Argi Naria scout moved towards monolith

- Second Vander monolith scout will move westward, too

- Moved the southern colony pod accidentally - I don't see a decent use for it anyway... (maybe a short lived ec producer -> Morgan Garbage?)

- The western foil has three options for next turn
a) infiltrate Lal (with the risk of being lost) , go home to CoT and be at the next Hive base in five turns
b) move directly east, pop pods (with the risk of tidal waves) and be at the next Hive base in five turns
c) move directly east, do not pop pods and be at the next Hive base in five turns

I suggested in the Gaian diplomacy thread to gift them SotHB and EnvEcon so that they can start on Neural Grafting which they will have more quickly than we. As soon as they get it, they have to give it to us and we can leapfrog to BioEng or MMI.


I personally doubt a bit that a Spartan invasion from the Uni coast might be that as near - I see them industrially challenged (paying support AND expanding quickly) and a bit strapped for cash (Planned). It could rather be that the next wave comes from the east (Gynthium Harbour), having been prepared for the last several turns.

Perimeter defenses for the western fringe bases are definitely in order soon, together with one or two missile rovers for counterpunching.

p.s. There will be definitely a second paramiria if the first one will be attacked - just like the "AndiD Ideas" which will be founded next turn in the very east.

[Mead]

Originally posted by AndiD
***
I need to check where succesful foils return. Choke on This would be nice, but since its homebase is RFR it could well be RFR. In this case, it could move straight east-southeast and will be there around five turns and may even pop some pods on the way. (Does pod-popping cost a move?) I don't really see a benefit in infiltrating Lal, compared to D:AP.

The major benefit from infiltrating Lal is that we (hopefully) get our Gator Boat back real soon ao we can send it to get DAP from Yang. How long will it take to get it to a Hive base otherwise?

I suggested in the Gaian diplomacy thread to gift them SotHB and EnvEcon so that they can start on Neural Grafting which they will have more quickly than we. As soon as they get it, they have to give it to us and we can leapfrog to BioEng or MMI.

Good Idea, I'm thinking about it..

I personally doubt a bit that a Spartan invasion from the Uni coast might be that as near - I see them industrially challenged (paying support AND expanding quickly) and a bit strapped for cash (Planned). It could rather be that the next wave comes from the east (Gynthium Harbour), having been prepared for the last several turns.

I'm not sure where they are coming from, but I see a lot of bases just east of Uni that can create and support a lot of rovers. The way their ship ran westward over our North, and the fact that they already have a fast transport off our western seas makes me think that they will come again from the West. Maybe in addition to the East.

Perimeter defenses for the western fringe bases are definitely in order soon, together with one or two missile rovers for counterpunching.

Without perimeter defenses our units, including plasma one are mere targets or speed bumps for elite missile rovers. I think a couple or pemiters (Vander and Morgan Mussels, perhaps Implaler) should be a priority over a net node. Don't get me wrong, I want a net node vey soon, but we need to hold off the Spartan advance. Commjammer units would be nice too. What tech do we need for that?

Mead

[AndiD]

It's about five turns versus about five turns for the Gator. Practically it's about moving directly southwards through a bit of fungus versus moving nearly directly eastwards and potentially pop some pods.

We can substitute Perimeter Defenses by a block of crawlers for Impaler Polymers for a short time, allowing us a Net Node there and Perimeter Defenses everywhere else. The CDF is a bit further away - the Uni researches IntInt at the moment but will finish in ten years. We should have good chances of getting it through our Pact...

Comm Jammers is Advanced Subatomic Theory, right? It's something we could research from what we have. but Airpower and BioEng still look superior.

If we can survive the next 5 years, we have good chances of defending Sparta and after ten years, we should be well set.

I'm going to post the turn just in time so still 2,5 hours for input.

[Whoha]

well since no one else did it let me be the first to say "Woohoo we're still alive!"

[Mead]

True we are still alive.

I am concerned about our chances.

Going against us is the large number of Spartan bases plus the MCC, Command Nexus, and the military power they have.

Going for us is the cash flow.

We need to slow them down until we get DAP.

How? I don't know.

We need to bolstur our defenses.

How? I'm thinking Perimeter defenses well stocked with plasma defenders, 3 probes, and missile rovers. It will take 3 turns to make that happen. Will we be ready next time they come?

I am thinking of tearing up roads from threatened areas towards our core area, at the first sign of trouble to buy us another turn or two.

I am thinking of having enough crawlers (both to help produce mins, but also to be ready to cash in for 4-6 needlejets immediately upon us getting DAP).

I'm thinking of building a cruiser transport to more 4 probes over to western Sparta to infiltrate its westrn bases. I'm thinking of escorting the cruiser with needlejets and expending them, if necessary to empty out the garrison of Spartan units (including probes) so we can probe at will.

I'm thinking that they didn't feel that they were strong enough to take and hold us a few turns ago because otherwise they would have waited and taken and held Morgan Industries instead of destroying it.

I think they still fear our probes.

Since we are doing very little in research now anyways I think we may want to go with Funde to enhance our morale, in particular our probe morale.


Those are my random thoughts, and yes it is good to be alive.


Mead

[Mead]

Trading the Map

I would like to trade the map to the DA for a Pact and thier most current map, plus if I can get it something else.


I would like to trade the map to the Gaians in return for their map.

We need to convince the DA in particular that the Spartans are running away with the game. They took Uni, they are going to take PK, they may take us.

They have the borehole cluster, manifold nexus, and a lot of terrain.

Let me know wjat you all think. We should be able to send screenshots of the map before their turn is up to the DA if they agree.

Mead

[AndiD]

Excellent - you sure you don't wanna become turnplayer?

From bottom to the top:
Totally agree to your diplomacy points - I'll get you some nice screenshots of Spartan, PK and Uni territory. Any update on your position on gifting EnvEcon and SotHB to Gaia in exchange for them research Neural Grafting for us?

I've also thought about Fundy - it helps Support also, compared to Dem. I will do some testing about the effects of Fundy (= enhanced probe team morale) on probe actions, too. Downside is, it utterly kills our research - and we still want research for BioEng and/or MMI as soon as we get Neural Grafting from Gaia.

I plan to invest normally into the labs as soon as we have a wave of crawlers and Perimeters in place - as soon as possible. After D:AP, BioEng and MMI we can really switch the labs off for a while IMO, but not now. (Switch them back on as soon as our force has tripled or quadrupled, with Clean)

As soon we get an early warning of Spartan troops approaching - it will be Fundy though for the morale boost. (We should have thought about that earlier, darn...)

Building a transport foil (noone except Sparta has Doc:Init - I guess this tech is what keeps Sparta in the tech lead) with probes could be close to luxury right now - although we have some probes and a tranny isn't that expensive.
Related thought: We could send the Plasma foil eastwards (or westwards? damn decisions...) right now for an early warning.

I still wonder why they didn't try to hold MorInd and at least attempt to wreak some more havoc - or we just barely lost against their rovers? Our cash position isn't that great for probe actions against someone running Fundy though.

Crawlers, Perimeters, RecTanks and a few selected offense units are top prioritiy right now, definitely. Instead of tearing down the roads, how about armored crawlers and formers for blocking them. Sensors would be great, too (+25% in defense!), but I fear they will come only after the mines.

[AndiD]

Some screenshots of Spartan land (as Caretakers - Sparta as Sparta gives black population numbers on black background?!)

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=52362_map_screenshots.zip

Note: We should remove every faction data from each image we don't want to share (infobox etc.)! Can you do it or shall I?

[Mead]

Originally posted by AndiD
Excellent - you sure you don't wanna become turnplayer?

From bottom to the top:
Totally agree to your diplomacy points - I'll get you some nice screenshots of Spartan, PK and Uni territory. Any update on your position on gifting EnvEcon and SotHB to Gaia in exchange for them research Neural Grafting for us?

I have not asked them yet. The sooner we trade it to them the sooner they get the benefits of increased income from EE and increased labs. But the sooner we trade the longer the time differnce between our trade to them and their return trade to us (I like to keep the return trade close in time to our trade to them so they asre less tempted to forget they owe us the tech). How well do we trust them?

I've also thought about Fundy - it helps Support also, compared to Dem. I will do some testing about the effects of Fundy (= enhanced probe team morale) on probe actions, too. Downside is, it utterly kills our research - and we still want research for BioEng and/or MMI as soon as we get Neural Grafting from Gaia.

I say funde at first sign of trouble.

I plan to invest normally into the labs as soon as we have a wave of crawlers and Perimeters in place - as soon as possible. After D:AP, BioEng and MMI we can really switch the labs off for a while IMO, but not now. (Switch them back on as soon as our force has tripled or quadrupled, with Clean)

As soon we get an early warning of Spartan troops approaching - it will be Fundy though for the morale boost. (We should have thought about that earlier, darn...)

Building a transport foil (noone except Sparta has Doc:Init - I guess this tech is what keeps Sparta in the tech lead) with probes could be close to luxury right now - although we have some probes and a tranny isn't that expensive.
Related thought: We could send the Plasma foil eastwards (or westwards? damn decisions...) right now for an early warning.

I still wonder why they didn't try to hold MorInd and at least attempt to wreak some more havoc - or we just barely lost against their rovers? Our cash position isn't that great for probe actions against someone running Fundy though.

Crawlers, Perimeters, RecTanks and a few selected offense units are top prioritiy right now, definitely. Instead of tearing down the roads, how about armored crawlers and formers for blocking them. Sensors would be great, too (+25% in defense!), but I fear they will come only after the mines.

Let's not tear down the roads now. Only after we get an indication of invasion if its not too late.

Armored units, unless they are plasma and in perimeter equipped bases (preferably with a sensor nearby) will do little to slow down an invasion. A square without a road slows down every elite rover that has to cross it. A square with a road but with one of our units on it only slows down 1 attacking rover. The rest past throught the wreckage of our units unhindered.


Mead