Spartan Diplomacy

[#endgame]

If we do switch to PS, we should give Yang a call.

-- CTO #endgame

[jtsisyoda]

Args, what would we have to offer Sparta in return for all that?

[Mead]

So what are we planning on doing?

Although I'm assuming we are waiting on the Turn and PK commlink before we do anything, what are the various options depending upon what happens next turn?


Mead

[Chaunk]

I'm hoping we're not shifting to police state so soon after we just switched to demo. PS means horrible inefficiency so lots of our bonus energy will be lost, and we'll likely anger Lal lots. Being as we're almost inevitably going to war with Yang, it feels pointless trying to please him.

Supporting more formers would be a good idea though. More everything in general, except bases at this point I feel. Our production in all our bases is generally very low, less than 10 mins. We need to increase it to at least 20 mins in a few bases, and 27 minimum in at least one. 27 allows us to produce a 3 row item (crawler, rover probe, plasma sentinel etc.) in one turn. 20 mins is the same for 2 row items, or 4 rows every other turn etc. Both of these numbers are above the eco damage levels so we'd be forcing pops.

More bases at this stage will lead to diminishing returns in the short term. Although the freebies from our SP's sound great (And they are!) more productive existing bases work on an almost exponential increase in returns for quite a while.

Uhh yeah, diplomacy thread

Personally, I don't think we get much out of this deal. I'd rather see us go for Doc:Init our next tech, for the posibility of the MCC. OTOH, they appear to be offering 2 free techs for nothing (Doc: Loyal and Soc Psy) as well as the beeline to Doc:Air. Perhaps agree to this with a Pact, but otherwise, research solo for a while I think.

[arginine]

In my last post I said a way we can get profits from the Spartans while delaying clean (using their clout to garner trade routes, the governorship and its trade bonus and the global trade pact for even more trade). I don't know what Sparta would want in return for that larger deal.

I.I., which will get us P.E. and that the global trade pact isn't worth much to us without many trade routes. We might be able to get services from them (coercion of Lal and votes on the council) that would be usefull.

The MMC would be good if we went for sea bases farther in the future, which I want to do. I want clean next (I figured we could get/steal SotB from someone else). We could start researching it in hopes we could get it from someone else, but that is risky.

We can say we don't have any use for the techs now. 2 free techs are nice, but we can just steal/trade them. We could make use of them, but that path is similar to the path of an alliance between our two nations. They'll have to pay us more and they probably won't.

I am under the impression we'd make many land cities now. We'd then some big energy rich sea bases later. If we are going to make some larger bases, soon would be the time to pop boom before we pass the 3rd b limit.

On a final note, I will be inactive for a while. RL demands attention. Good luck.

[AndiD]

I have no high opinion of the MCC, especially with Yang and Sparta (our main opponents) on the same landmass. If you want high energy cities, exploit Mount Planet with solar collectors on all non-rocky Mount squares and our rivers.

I like the deal, any tech we don't have to research on our own is good and when we can get them right NOW (and not steal them some time in the future), even better. I.I., Soc: Psych, Doc:Loy are techs which are requirements for other nice things which take "ages" to get (you want to have the nice things immediately but you can't - missing requirements)

I'd also second the need for more vertical expansion, but we should keep minerals and energy balanced - since energy is our big advantage and will keep our research rate upfront. This research rate is why the Spartans won't attack us for a while. BTW, for a prime example of a overly mineral-heavy (= failed) strategy, look at the Spartans in the minigame...

[Mead]

My Post in Embassy Re: Spartan Probe Of Vander Eud

The Title was "Where Do We Go From Here"

The title says it all.

The Corporation is shocked, saddened, and disappointed.

Not only were we probed during the Treaty, but one of our valuable probe units was killed in the process.

We never saw it coming.

What should we do now?


We have several questions.

How much will we be compensated for the loss of the Probe?

How will we given given assuarances that future unfriendly acts will not be conducted against the Corporation?

How will we be granted the benefit of a return infiltration of the Junta?

How can we continue an association with the Junta unless we have clear promises from the Junta that no Junta units will approach our borders (to be within striking distance of our cites or territory) without prior notice to the Corporation. How can we continue association with the Junta without a clear promise from the Junta that no hostile military actions be taken agains the Corporation. How can we continue any association with the Junta without a clear promise from the Junta that no probe actions be carried out that are directed against or are detrimental to the Corporation?

We profited from our assocition with the Junta and we had hoped that the Junta profited from association with the Corporation.

We had hoped to continue to mutually profit from association with the Junta. I still do.

Picking up the pieces, in a hope to continue the relationship, I propose:

Payment of Probe (I am not sure but I am told this Probe cost 50ECs) for the loss of the Defensive Probe. This can be withheld from future payments to Sparta.

Return infiltration of Sparta by a Corporation unit. Until such time that can be accomplished we could enter into a Pact to ensure both Sparta have equal infiltration.

Obtain clear Spartan promise of no future Probe (or military) action during the remaining 9 years of the treaty.

Mead
CDO, Morgan Corp.

PS
I like being open to negotiation, but there are those who find it difficult for us to continue sharing profits with you, and funneling money to you when we see it so clearly used against us. There are those within the Corporation who state that your Probe action, with the resulting loss of life, has breached the treaty between us. I hope that the Treaty can be salvaged. There are those who say we now owe you nothing and that anything else we share or send to you will only be used against us. I hope that we can continue the work that was so beneficial before.

I agree that the actions of the Junta have harmed the Corporation and that there are damages that should be compensated, but I feel that the Corporationa and the Junta mutually benefit from working together. Without the mutual cooperation I believe we both will fail.

Please let me know if I am wrong in hoping.

I express that we are willing to work with them.

Please note that they probably have already made their minds up on what to do next.

We need to get the PEG built and get ready for defense.

Rubin, where are you?

I think we need Probe units, some military using the tech we are getting from the PKs and the MCC.

Let's get ready for a fight whatever they say.


Mead

[Mead]

Message Posted a few days ago.

Date Posted: 30/11/2004 7:58 PM


Dear Mr. Mead:

We are currently researching Intellectual Integrity , as we have alluded to in prior communications, However, given that somehow we have managed to become the technology leaders on Chiron, our research rate is, perforce, pathetic.

The Corporation will imminently finish its research into Adaptive Ecomomics.

Might the Corporation be willing to work with the Federaion towards both our factions acquiring Intellectual Integrity? This would likely require the Corporation to commence researching Social Psych after completing Adaptive Economics, and our sending to the Corporation the 2 technologies of Social Psych and Doctrine: Loyalty, whereupon you could change to Intellectual Integrity and pass to us upon completion.

This would then - for us - complete the research that we have deemed to be on our critical path (opening the way for us to complete the Citizens' Defense Force which you recall from our Ethical Calculus deal was a crucial component in our strategy development) and clear the way for a more detailed joint approach to researching Synthetic Fossil Fuels and Doctrine: Air Power to be followed by Neural Grafting and Mind Machine Interface.

Is there interest on the part of the Corporation?

Lieutenant-Colonel Googlie



Commanding Officer, Spartan Engineering Corps; Commanding Officer, Spartan Special Forces

2nd message posted in the embassy a few today after the Probe action.

Date Posted: 04/12/2004 4:47 PM

* bump* (as it wasn't showing as new any ,ore)


Commanding Officer, Spartan Engineering Corps; Commanding Officer, Spartan Special Forces

They still seem to be interested in cooperation. Hoping to ignore the fact that we we probed by them.


Mead

[Mead]

See below PM response from Googlie to my PM asking him what was happening.

RE: What's Happening

I've just posted your message (from the Embassy) in our Forum, together with my suggested reply.

With the benefit of hindsight, we'd have been better off infiltrating at Red Fungus Resort - then you'd never have known (but we believed that you would have probe defenders in all your coastal bases)

We'll prolly offer reparations (we calcuklate them at 52 ec's) but I can't see the Junta agreeing to parallel infiltration. (If one of your 'Gators had found a Sparta base without a probe defender, you'd have infiltrated us without our knowing, and tell me honestly - would you have asked permission in advance? Would you have told us of your success? Would you have then allowed us to probe you? I doubt it)

I can prolly convince the Junta to support a Morgan run for Governorship (you and Yang would now be the 2 candidates, as you have overtaken Lal) after Yang gets all the commlinks.

We'd like to stay friends and trading partners. I think we can agree not to stealtech or show hostile intent for the duration of our current treaty - but Morgan assisting us to get the CDF would be huge for future good relations between us (We see the Hive as being a major threat in this game. The Gaians are pooh-poohing our fears, but they don't share the long border with Yang that we do, and their victories have been with a marauding mindworm against Hive colony pods. (They might change their tune when those legions of Impact rovers call on the nearest Gaian base). So getting perimeter defenses up and running for us is crucial.

I still think that we can - together - control this game so that the outcome rests with just our two competing philosophies - and it'd make a fine endgame with Morgan going for a transcendence or an economic victory while we try to go the world domination or supreme leader route (with maybe a sniffing chance at transcendence).

But that's just my opinion. There are others who believe that a Gaian-Sparta axis makes more sense, while yet a third believes that we should change to POLICE and Pact with the devil.

Anyway, the Junta will be discussing events and we'll get back formally thru the Embassy, but I'm hoping that we can get to "business as usual" with the only difference being that we have you infiltrated for a few turns before you get infiltration on us.

Googlie

I think it gives us everything we want, except for a clear promise of no future Probe actions or military action against us until at least 2160.

I remain suspicious because they seem a little too generous in offering 52 versus 50 ECs I suggested.

Mead

[Micha]

Well, I think they fear we won´t pay them anymore and, more importanty, they fear we won´t help them to gain some crucial techs.
That 52 ec is nothing compared to dozens of years of annual aid shipments to them

Of course we mustn´t forget that, with "display chances" turned on, they knew there was a probe defence and still attacked. But as long as we can hold their armies off for another term, I say we should accept whatever they offer.

[Micha]

Regarding this:

I can prolly convince the Junta to support a Morgan run for Governorship (you and Yang would now be the 2 candidates, as you have overtaken Lal) after Yang gets all the commlinks.

Should they offer to vote for us in these elections, we will even win from this incident

edit:
oops, sorry for the doublepost Hit reply instead of edit...

[Mead]

I'll PM back stating that I think I might be able to get back to business as usual if we get a proper compensation, clear promise of no future probe or military actions adverse to us until at least 2161, and Spartan support for Morgan governship.

Mead

[jtsisyoda]

As I wrote in the turn thread...

Getting replacement cost only seems a little silly to me. If they had asked if they could infiltrate, if we would only move our probe out of the way, we would've declined. So infiltration is worth more than the probe we lost. Perhaps we should pursue punitive damages in addition to compensatory damages. Perhaps votes for the governorship would suffice.

[Micha]

Hm, IMO we are in no position to ask for anything more than what they offer. We couldn´t stand a real invasion effort since we have literally no military.
We need to cling to peace as long as we can, until we´ve built up a sufficient army. It is THEN when we can start asking for more...

Just my opinion, though.

[Mead]

Sparta can't afford to lose the income stream and the Tech Cooperation.

I'm not sure Spart can afford to spend the resources it now has on an invasion of us. Unless they have the forces in place now, it should take two turns to begin an effective invasion.

We need peace in order to develop our economy and get an effective defense in place.

Googlie indicated in his PM that Sparta would pay the 52 ECs, support us for governor, and promise no further harmful actions until 2161 at the earliest.

Let's see if he confirms this offer formally.

Mead