***Oh FuK the Secret's out***

[Jamski]

Ok. Guess I was still not clear enough. It was an emergency procedure. The hive being "dead" means nobody was working (compare to nobody posting). The forum was created by Kody and I, the two people who feel that it was their duty to carry this team forward, even when everybody else doesn't seem to care, but with their limited time and energy, they felt that they cannot offord to spend 90% of their time on trying to get people work, trying to explain why some suggestions from people who do not bother to follow the game were wront, and hope to strimline the working process so that they are actually able to carry the great duty that they were so brave to take on. It was planned that each of them will make decisions on minor details such as worker allocations, crawler allocations and former allocations without having to consulting the other. Again this is so that they would be able to actually do all the work that needs to be done. Please remember other than the turn itself, there are also diplomatic relations to be taken care of, and they try to encorporate long term planning into the game so that the turn playing is not really a very simple matter.

But again, dear comrade, you have no reason to make this desision in secret, to keep the forum secret, and to decide yourself on "who is working" Sure, it could be a good idea to have just 3 or 4 people actually orgainising the turn, but there is no good reason to do this in secret. None.

During the time they have actually done more that they originally planned, that is they have not had the heart to leave the others in the team. So they have kept the forum current with all the relavent information, and they have communicated with anybody who has shown various degrees of interest of the game. What make them feel gratified is that not only the Chairman has been giving them the maximum support personally from the very beginning, their efforts have also been encouraged by growing participation from the players. Old players like Comrade Micha, Vander and Oct have been sharing the work load for them, and new members such as dacole, Enigma and Mead has started to learn about the game and started to be involved in the game deeper and deeper.

HongHu, the forum hardly got ANY input about what was going on in the turn, and the desisions being made. Remember how I was going crazy in October-November, because the forum was so dead. The threads are all still here, we can all see exacltly how it was. I may be a bit forgetfull, HongHu, but not in this instance.

They have spended more than ten times of their time and energy than they can actually afford, simply trying to foster this growing participation. Every potential member has been contacted, through PMs, MSN chats or other means, first without the mentioning of the shaddow and simply encouraging them to participate and take on tasks, and when the member showed his real interest and capability, they are gradually informed about the existence of the shaddow ministry and accepted into it.

This is just evil eliteism secret society stuff. Pass the three holy tests to proceed and learn the secret handshake.

The reason that the shaddow ministry is not publically announced, is exactly to avoid a situation like what we have now. That people upon knowing it, demanding their "rights" to be included, without remembering their "reponsibilities" and "duties" to the team.

People retain their rights, no matter how they neglect their duties. Rights must be universal, or they are only priveliges, not rights.

If this makes these people who are actually working "special", then why not? Yes I would say they ARE special. For they are willing to contribute part of their life for the team. They give instead of ask, work instead of demand.

Yes, they are "special" perhaps, but they are not "better". Those who do nothing, not even spam, are equal as comrades of the Hive. All comrades are equal, from the Chairman, to the rec-tank cleaning drones.

The shaddow ministry is currently temporarily closed. Waiting for the team to make the final decision. Another reason that this forum may be helpful is that it provides certain shielding from potential infiltration from other factions. Therefore the team may want to investigate into this issue and make a collective decision regarding whether it should be reactivated. Also, if the team is to die again, I would hope there will be another two or three players who are willing to sacrifice their life for others, and reactivate the shaddow ministry to carry on what cannot be accomplished through the official government.

Why do you feel you cannot do the same as the "shaddow ministry" in this forum? Its a forum, it has threads, you can post in it. Perhaps one of the "2nd-class-comrades" will surprise you "elites" with a good suggestion once in a while. Perhaps new players might join, perhaps old players would retain their interest. Imagine, for example, that Zero came back, or Allie, and wanted to contribute, and found only spam in this forum, because the stratagy was all being discussed in secret forums. If you MUST have an elite group, then discuss in "elite threads" on this forum, where only "elite group members" can post, and others may only read. Same thing, job done, but open to all.

Dear Comrade Jamski, I hope you have not skimmed my post this time. Please think about what your "drastic action" is going to be. Is it simply your method of revenge for not being included? Is it going to harm the team that you and Voltaire created and you have loved? Is it going to hassle you for the rest of your life?

I can't do it. The shaddow forum is suspended, you say. And I assume you are not lying about that. Therefore my beloved Hive shall live on. I'm just waiting for the mass-authorisation of all members...

The shaddow ministry will not be closed because of your "threat". In fact your "threat" will almost for sure have the exact opposite effect. However, we are more mature and rational than that. Please remember, anger and threat will not solve anything, and will not bring you anywhere you'd like to be.

True. But you would have been very angry too. But now I am calm again.

-Jam

[Snowflake]

Originally posted by Jamski


But again, dear comrade, you have no reason to make this desision in secret, to keep the forum secret, and to decide yourself on "who is working" Sure, it could be a good idea to have just 3 or 4 people actually orgainising the turn, but there is no good reason to do this in secret. None.

None you say? Wouldn't keeping this exact thread from happening and preventing me from having to spend 90% of my limited time on responding to this a good enough reason?

HongHu, the forum hardly got ANY input about what was going on in the turn, and the desisions being made. Remember how I was going crazy in October-November, because the forum was so dead. The threads are all still here, we can all see exacltly how it was. I may be a bit forgetfull, HongHu, but not in this instance.

Well let's hope you are not forgetful. Tell me what I have written into the threads in this forum. Ask others if here have been any input about what was going on in the turn and the decisions being made. See if your answers are different. It is useless for you and me to argue back and force for million times.

This is just evil eliteism secret society stuff. Pass the three holy tests to proceed and learn the secret handshake.

People retain their rights, no matter how they neglect their duties. Rights must be universal, or they are only priveliges, not rights.

Yes, they are "special" perhaps, but they are not "better". Those who do nothing, not even spam, are equal as comrades of the Hive. All comrades are equal, from the Chairman, to the rec-tank cleaning drones.

No they are not equal in my book, sorry. If you don't care about the team, you have no need to be here. You get what you work for. The last time I checked, we are still not in communism yet, when everybody can get whatever they want without having to work for it. Here in the team, resources are limited. If you don't work, you don't get nothing. Life is tough, sorry.

Why do you feel you cannot do the same as the "shaddow ministry" in this forum? Its a forum, it has threads, you can post in it. Perhaps one of the "2nd-class-comrades" will surprise you "elites" with a good suggestion once in a while. Perhaps new players might join, perhaps old players would retain their interest. Imagine, for example, that Zero came back, or Allie, and wanted to contribute, and found only spam in this forum, because the stratagy was all being discussed in secret forums. If you MUST have an elite group, then discuss in "elite threads" on this forum, where only "elite group members" can post, and others may only read. Same thing, job done, but open to all.

Well maybe you are right. Perhaps I have been thinking for myself too much. I thought that it might save me some time and effort, and I thought that I have been doing a pretty decent job of informing the rest of the team. I'm not sure I'd go for the "elite threads" idea, but I'm sure I would have really appreciated the idea at least if you proposed this idea when I tried to communicate with you when I was deliberately trying to do all things by myself and still manage to sleep more than 4 hours.

[Enigma_Nova]

Originally posted by HongHu

None you say? Wouldn't keeping this exact thread from happening and preventing me from having to spend 90% of my limited time on responding to this a good enough reason?

This thread is about the secrecy, not the forum. If the forum were not secret this thread would not happen.
Is your time really so valuable, Honghu? Why are you complaining?
Do you feel it is your sworn sacred vow to care for those who know less than you?
What prevents you from spending 90% of your oh-so-valuable time elsewhere?
You are free to bugger off from the Hive, you know that. Nor will many of us care if you do; we can manage fine.

Why land yourself in a rut then complain about your circumstances? Seems to me all you have to blame are a set of conflicting needs and a lack of foresight.

It is useless for you (jamski) and me to argue back and force for million times.

It's an entertaining look into both your psyches. It may not have any benefit to either of you but I'm gaining useful knowledge.

No they are not equal in my book, sorry.

Both you and Jamski fail to provide a basis for judgement, so you'll sling sophilistic arguments back and forward until one of you defines how he or she is judging his or her comrades.

IMO Hiverian folk are not inherently equal. There are those with more enthusiasm, those that do more work, those that have more skill.
There are those, skilled in literary or interpersonal skills, that make fine diplomats. There are those skilled in spatial abilities in logic, that make good turn players.
Still others vent their psyches in the form of PRAVDA, while others know the value of a good postcount.

It would be useless to try to value one person over another. All people are inherently useful and of value, in my opinion, because all can offer their insights, abilities and virtues.
What would the Hive become if we start devaluing those who do not follow our path? Why,we'd become a Police state, and in the spirit of a democracy game I doubt this path of action is appropriate.

If you don't care about the team, you have no need to be here.

So THAT'S what your motivator... Group Support.
Of course, you show ignorance to those with other goals.
The Valiant Kody, always eager to unlock new secrets, he is here to learn.
Enigma_Nova, strong of will, has come here to flex his mental muscle.
Surely many of our hiverian comrades are also here for fun?

Now, to translate your own statement by any of the 3 virtues above:
1. If you aren't willing to learn, then why stay around?
2. Why should we nurture skillless weaklings?
3. What's the point, if not for fun? Don't spoil our good time.
Any of these seem a bit outrageous to you?
4. If you don't care about the team, you have no need to be here
All comments are on par with that one.

You see, you have right to follow the path of Group Support, but you have no reason to mold The Hive around it, and no right to mold Us around it.
Let all viewpoints have a place, and let all minds be free. If you do not, then are you not just a despot?
Then again, nobody said Police State was an ineffective system. I just don't think it is the best system for a democracy game.

You get what you work for.

Statistically, you'll miss out on 100% of the opportunities you don't try for, and 95% of the opportunities you do.
Not to mention that the above paradigm enables you to force people to work under -your- war machine in order to get rewards.

While I know that's not your plan, note well that people, while willing to work, may not be willing to work for your goals or under your regime.
Come to think of it that's Jamski's gripe right there.

The last time I checked, we are still not in communism yet, when everybody can get whatever they want without having to work for it.

Everyone step forward if you understand communism!
Not so fast HongHu...
You described Aristocracy, not Communism. Communist societies insist on supplying their workers with however much bread they need, but never any caviar, regardless of how much they want caviar.

Here in the team, resources are limited. If you don't work, you don't get nothing. Life is tough, sorry.

WTF?
Everyone can make suggestions, contribute to the team, get responsibility and ascend. There is NO motive to exclude a capable player from and important position.
Moreover, we have infinite forum space, and enough people to listen to your messages.

No HongHu resources are -not- limited they are plentiful, and you'd do well to note that this is a skill-and-class matter and not a supply/demand matter.

As for life being tough? You can make it tough, for both yourself and others. And while I see the merit in pushing yourself, why would YOU want to make life tough for others?
You're not... and that's why we're all attacking jamski and complaining about Hive participation. Right.

Well maybe you are right. Perhaps I have been thinking for myself too much.

There is no upper limit on self-determination.
Oh... you meant selfish analysis, not informing the team.
That's for -you- to judge. I won't be mad if you're communal or elitist, but I prefer to inform the noobs.
Maybe you should take a stint at living for yourself rather than living for the team.
Or not, your choice. Just that a stint in working for yourself, a change of mind, may teach you something.

I thought that it might save me some time and effort,

Safest way to save time and effort is to not do stuff you'd rather not do.

and I thought that I have been doing a pretty decent job of informing the rest of the team.

We disagree. Now what are you going to do?
Bend and conform to our will, or be stagnant and stubborn?
Not pretty either way.

I'm not sure I'd go for the "elite threads" idea, but I'm sure I would have really appreciated the idea at least if you proposed this idea when I tried to communicate with you

A Fundamental rule of human effort:
If people don't see a problem they don't try to fix it.

When I was deliberately trying to do all things by myself and still manage to sleep more than 4 hours.

Well that's your own damn fault isn't it?
Get some rest and quit the team, then see how you feel.
Or not, your choice. You'll probably be torn between letting us down and supporting yourself.

You'll let no-one down by leaving. I'm sure we can conquer Chiron without you.

[Jamski]

I agree with most of what Enigma just said. Most, not all. The whole "clear off HongHu" is totally unneeded. HongHu is one of our most valuable members.

I also must restate my belief in the equality of all Hive members.

• All Hive members have an equal right to open the turn save.
• All Hive members have an equal right to state an opinion.
• The votes of all Hive members have equal weight.
• Noone may be forced to leave the Hive, except they break the rules of the game.
• All Hive members have an equal right to be informed of all desisions.
• All Hive members have an equal right to take part in all discussions.
• All Hive members have the right to a private life, and in spending time away from the Hive, they do not forfit any of their rights.
• All these rights are the same for all Hive citizens, and are not dependent on thier level of participation, past, future or present, but are extended to all Hive members freely. They are not a reward for good behavior.
• No Hive government may take away these basic rights.

-Jam

[Mead]

Mead is Honored to be among the First to Step Forward and Defend Hong Hu

Originally posted by Enigma_Nova

***

Is your time really so valuable, Honghu? Why are you complaining?
Do you feel it is your sworn sacred vow to care for those who know less than you?
What prevents you from spending 90% of your oh-so-valuable time elsewhere?
You are free to bugger off from the Hive, you know that. Nor will many of us care if you do; we can manage fine.

***

Well that's your own damn fault isn't it?
Get some rest and quit the team, then see how you feel.
Or not, your choice. You'll probably be torn between letting us down and supporting yourself.

You'll let no-one down by leaving. I'm sure we can conquer Chiron without you.

I CONSIDER IT AN HONOR TO BE AMONG THE FIRST TO COME TO HONG HU'S DEFENSE.

I, speaking for myself, would consider it a disastrous loss if Hong Hu left the Hive. I do not presume to speak for others.

I will be very disappointed if Hong Hu leaves. I will feel let down if Hong Hu leaves.



Enigma_Nova please let us know.

Who are you?

Why are you here in the Hive?

Why did you come here?

Could you post the list of who else you would not mind have leaving the Hive?


Mead

[Voltaire]

All Hive members have an equal right to open the turn save.

Unless it is found that the integrity of the Hive is compromised by allowing the turn to be posted in public, this would be the case if another faction has our password, or other events.

All Hive members have an equal right to state an opinion.

Yup, no problem here.

The votes of all Hive members have equal weight.

Indeed, absolutely right, the votes of all Hive members have equal weight, zero.

Noone may be forced to leave the Hive, except they break the rules of the game.

Sure, but remember there are many ways to break the game rules.

All Hive members have an equal right to be informed of all desisions.

This was never violated; all Hive members are informed of ALL decisions.

All Hive members have an equal right to take part in all discussions.

Yup, unless they’re private discussions.

All Hive members have the right to a private life, and in spending time away from the Hive, they do not forfit any of their rights.

Indeed I have no problem with this; HongHu really does deserve a break.

All these rights are the same for all Hive citizens, and are not dependent on thier level of participation, past, future or present, but are extended to all Hive members freely. They are not a reward for good behavior.

Of course, it's just that some are more equal than others.

No Hive government may take away these basic rights.

Yup, that's totally right, after all they're constitutionally inscribed... no wait a minute, they're not.

[Voltaire]

Is your time really so valuable, Honghu? Why are you complaining?
Do you feel it is your sworn sacred vow to care for those who know less than you?
What prevents you from spending 90% of your oh-so-valuable time elsewhere?
You are free to bugger off from the Hive, you know that. Nor will many of us care if you do; we can manage fine.

Why land yourself in a rut then complain about your circumstances? Seems to me all you have to blame are a set of conflicting needs and a lack of foresight.

Because some of us give a damn about this game that we’ve taken time out of our busy lives to participate in it. We have every right to complain that no one else does any work, and I mean any. When Kody left for the first time the Hive nearly collapsed sine he was doing ALL the work? That doesn’t seem fair, now does it? Fine, why don’t we just work off of Jamski’s principle that no one has any responsibility to do any work, oh great, let’s all just drop everything now and hope someone will do it, yah that will get us far.

Your comments are beyond inappropriate; frankly you have no right to comment on HongHu’s participation in the Hive, how long have you been here? What have you contributed? I am of the opinion that unless you do some work your opinion counts for nothing. Yes, it’s easy to ***** and complain when you’re sitting back and letting others do the real work.

You know what, HongHu would do well to leave this game now, it is suppose to be a game, and being that it is suppose to be fun. No longer does it feel like that, but rather it has become a chore, a responsibility, duty, or obligation. Not only is she trying to keep the Hive alive by taking on her shoulders much of the workload no one else wants, but everyone else is complaining about it. Fine, have it all, see how well you do. Jamski have you precious democracy, I’ll sit back and watch the Hive fall down in flames.

IMO Hiverian folk are not inherently equal. There are those with more enthusiasm, those that do more work, those that have more skill.
There are those, skilled in literary or interpersonal skills, that make fine diplomats. There are those skilled in spatial abilities in logic, that make good turn players.
Still others vent their psyches in the form of PRAVDA, while others know the value of a good postcount.

It would be useless to try to value one person over another. All people are inherently useful and of value, in my opinion, because all can offer their insights, abilities and virtues.
What would the Hive become if we start devaluing those who do not follow our path? Why,we'd become a Police state, and in the spirit of a democracy game I doubt this path of action is appropriate.

Say what you will but the engineer is more important than the artisan in the functioning of society. The artisans may go, they would be missed, but society would function. Remove the engineers and it would collapse. Frankly PRAVDA and the remaining superfluous work need not be done when we do not even have someone to play the turn. The fact remains no one wishes to dedicate the time to playing the turn “properly.”

In the spirit of role playing that action would be more than appropriate, and some of us came here to role play.

Everyone step forward if you understand communism!
Not so fast HongHu...
You described Aristocracy, not Communism. Communist societies insist on supplying their workers with however much bread they need, but never any caviar, regardless of how much they want caviar.

What’s wrong with aristocracy?

WTF?
Everyone can make suggestions, contribute to the team, get responsibility and ascend. There is NO motive to exclude a capable player from and important position.
Moreover, we have infinite forum space, and enough people to listen to your messages.

Except, no one does.

[Jamski]

Jamski’s principle that no one has any responsibility to do any work

Not my principle at all. I just say that one who does no work has the equal rights as one who works. Of course, one who works has more value and may be more respected but they do not become a better class of citizen by doing so.

Jamski have you(r) precious democracy, I’ll sit back and watch the Hive fall down in flames.

With the greatest respect, Comrade Chairman, this is a democracy game. Its not my precious democracy, its our precious democracy. Without democracy, how is this a democracy game, exactly?

Except, no one does.

I beg to differ.

-Jam

[Voltaire]

Not my principle at all. I just say that one who does no work has the equal rights as one who works. Of course, one who works has more value and may be more respected but they do not become a better class of citizen by doing so.

If so you desire, though I take strong issue with those who do no work complaining about the actions of those who take the time to contribute.

With the greatest respect, Comrade Chairman, this is a democracy game. Its not my precious democracy, its our precious democracy. Without democracy, how is this a democracy game, exactly?

With vast reverence, Comrade Jamski, this is the Human Hive, democracy does not seem to be high up on our list of priorities. Besides, we have had a democracy, it failed.

I beg to differ.

Then by all means prove me wrong, please. I would take no grater pleasure than viewing a turn done by player other than Kody of even half the caliber. If you have such skill and enthusiasm then by all means Comrade Jamski, do some work, prove me wrong.

[Jamski]

If so you desire, though I take strong issue with those who do no work complaining about the actions of those who take the time to contribute.

You must see that those who work are working for the good of ALL of the Hive, yes, not just for personal glory? And therefore ALL of the Hive has the right to critisise the work that is being done for them and in their name. Its only logical.

With vast reverence, Comrade Jamski, this is the Human Hive, democracy does not seem to be high up on our list of priorities. Besides, we have had a democracy, it failed.

With the greatest humility, COmrade Chairman, may I point out that although we are playing as a police state, this remains a democracy game. And I hold that the reason the democracy failed is becase the people were alienated from what was happening. It was always unreasonable to expect everyone to look at the turn and make informed desicions. In a democracy the people need to be informed, not left to inform themselves.

Then by all means prove me wrong, please. I would take no grater pleasure than viewing a turn done by player other than Kody of even half the caliber. If you have such skill and enthusiasm then by all means Comrade Jamski, do some work, prove me wrong.

I would happily play a turn at any time. I would probably do it very differently to Kody, but still I would do it well enough. Of course, we could not both play the turn and compare, as this is forbidden by the rules of the democracy game.

-Jam

[Voltaire]

You must see that those who work are working for the good of ALL of the Hive, yes, not just for personal glory? And therefore ALL of the Hive has the right to criticize the work that is being done for them and in their name. Its only logical.

They are working for the good of the Hive, and many times the good of the Hive and democracy are in direct opposition to one another.

With the greatest humility, COmrade Chairman, may I point out that although we are playing as a police state, this remains a democracy game. And I hold that the reason the democracy failed is becase the people were alienated from what was happening. It was always unreasonable to expect everyone to look at the turn and make informed desicions. In a democracy the people need to be informed, not left to inform themselves.

With furthermost meekness, Comrade Jamski, was I not democratically elected? The powers vested in me then allow me to carry out all the actions that have been done to date if I recall correctly. The reasons for which you hold that democracy failed seem mistaken, democracy failed because of lack of participation. The second constitution reformed the system and made it MORE democratic, yet no one came forward and even nominated themselves for the many posts available. This apathy could not have been due to alienation, since Comrade Kody and Comrade HongHu went out of their way to consult everyone involved on decisions so much so that it was taking up days of their time to do turns and all the planning involved. No, democracy did not fail because of alienation, it failed because no one cared, Kody was doing all the work, and he was doing a damn good job of it too. The people ARE informed. What more can they ask for than for the information to be posted on the forum? Kody spoon-fed them the information before over MSN, he got tired of it. The information is there for those who read it, if you cannot be bothered to read then you have no right to complain.

I would happily play a turn at any time. I would probably do it very differently to Kody, but still I would do it well enough. Of course, we could not both play the turn and compare, as this is forbidden by the rules of the democracy game.

I beg to differ, Comrade Jamski, your turn cannot both be of similar caliber and yet different style than that of Comrade Kody, for there is only one optimum way in which to play the game.

[Enigma_Nova]

Re: Mead is Honored to be among the First to Step Forward and Defend Hong Hu

Originally posted by Mead
I CONSIDER IT AN HONOR TO BE AMONG THE FIRST TO COME TO HONG HU'S DEFENSE.

Defense? What are you defending?
I'm suggesting that it may calm HongHu's nerves if she did not have a commitment to the hive, and her current commitment is easily breakable.

I, speaking for myself, would consider it a disastrous loss if Hong Hu left the Hive. I do not presume to speak for others.

Life goes on. I think The Hive would be better with more active members - but we forget that HongHu has a life as well. A loss for some and a gain for others - as are all things.

I will be very disappointed if Hong Hu leaves. I will feel let down if Hong Hu leaves.

That's exactly her moral dilemma. She hates to let her in-team down.

Enigma_Nova please let us know.

What gives you the impression that it's worth my time?
What gives me the impression that you're trustworthy?

Who are you?

I am Enigma_Nova, a warrior of thought.

Why are you here in the Hive?

To prove to you all that I will not succumb to your twisted regimes and deluded fetishes.

Why did you come here?

To prove to other factions that NOBODY should oppose me.

Could you post the list of who else you would not mind have leaving the Hive?

Enigma_Nova
FrankyChan
HongHu
Jamski
Mead
Octavian X
VeV

Pretty much everyone except the game mods and the chairman.

[Enigma_Nova]

Originally posted by Voltaire
This was never violated; all Hive members are informed of ALL decisions.

So when did you decide to create a secret forum?

Yup, unless they’re private discussions.

Anything can be a private discussion.

Yup, that's totally right, after all they're constitutionally inscribed... no wait a minute, they're not.

Yeah that's right... you got p!ssed off and demolished the constitution didn't you?

[Enigma_Nova]

Originally posted by Voltaire
Because some of us give a damn about this game that we’ve taken time out of our busy lives to participate in it.

Does this entitle us to respect? Honour? A small gift of some kind?
People invest their time as they choose. They may invest it fruitfully or wastefully.
Sure you can justify people's anger at seeing the fruits of their labour go up in smoke, but it is not our responsibility to see that we all get what we want, nor is it some 'grand code of the universe' that work begets respect.

**** happens; deal with it.

We have every right to complain that no one else does any work, and I mean any.

Correct. But nobody has any responsibility to bend to your complaints (except perhaps the complainer him/herself)

That doesn’t seem fair, now does it?

Fair?
Kody takes up work. As Kody is skilled and willing, this is fair.
Kody gets stressed. As he is doing all the work, this is fair.
Kody leaves because he is stressed. This is fair.
The Hive collapses because nobody did any work. Fair.
How do you define 'fair' anyway?
I don't believe in standards like 'good', 'just' and 'fair'. They are tools used by those in authority to subject their will upon their followers.
How do you judge what is just, fair and good? With subjective values. If you allow subjective belief to have weigh on an argument then enough belief will make anything true.

Fine, why don’t we just work off of Jamski’s principle that no one has any responsibility to do any work, oh great, let’s all just drop everything now and hope someone will do it, yah that will get us far.

Let us test this claim, Chairman. Do not suppose that people need laws and rules, or a preset structure to live their life by.
I believe that an Anarchic system will work just fine here.
But the only way to find out... is to test it.

Your comments are beyond inappropriate; frankly you have no right to comment on HongHu’s participation in the Hive, how long have you been here?

And you have no right to presume that your own subjective values are starting grounds for a logical argument.
You're defining 'inapropriate' and judging things by your own subjective view.
Take your straw men and stand in the field, 'Voltaire'.

Quite frankly your opinion of Right and Wrong is worth sh!t all. I do not believe it, I am not forced to follow it, and in trying to get people to follow it you prove how much of a despot you are.
Now we know why you lead Yang's faction...

I am of the opinion that unless you do some work your opinion counts for nothing.

Easily allowing you to dismiss the opinions of those that would rather not work under your regime (and hence to some extent support your opinions).
*Enigma extends his left arm outwards in salute

You know what, HongHu would do well to leave this game now, it is suppose to be a game, and being that it is suppose to be fun.

Games are what you make them to be, Chairman. Fun? A Challenge? Training? Something else I haven't thought of?
The 1s and 0s are the same, but the game is perceived differently by everyone.

You may know 'Reality' better than I do, but in your solid one-truth stance you neglect the option of perceptions. I don't believe in truth or an absolute existence; people perceive a thing in many different ways. What is true to one is false to another, and to a third may be neither true nor false.
You'd do well to explore a more... idealist viewpoint.
You should be more like me.

Fine, have it all, see how well you do. Jamski have you precious democracy,

Life goes on when you're gone, Chairman. Send me your adress and I will prove it.
Falling down in flames? Well... if only you had as much faith in us as you had in your precious 'reality' (or whatever guise you hold for your personal opinions these days)

I’ll sit back and watch the Hive fall down in flames.

And the biggest flame is yet to come, you worthless excuse for a so-called leader. You couldn't lead a horse to water - and yet you're still trying to make him drink.

Say what you will but the engineer is more important than the artisan in the functioning of society.

As if we didn't need them both.
You're so concerned with the practical and the real, chairman. If the sole point of our existence is to keep our machine working then why the heck did we build the machine in the first place?
Sure we need to keep the system working but if the system's sole point is self-sustaining then there really is no point at all (as arguments for continuing the system would be circular)

We need Ideaspeople and Artists and whatnot. Ideaspeople to find a way to improve the system, or just to invent new ideas to ponder which may later be useful. Artists can tailor to the human condition.
Like it or not we are beings with creative streaks, emotions and our own values, not merely worker ants in some grand practical framework.
We evolved many parts to us for a reason; we have differing viewpoints for a reason. While I don't understand why some things are evolved it would be folly of us to ignore any aspect of who we are, be it the Artisan, the Scientist, the Engineer, the Counsellor...

but society would function.

But what good is society?
Why does it need to function?
Then again practical matters such as 'society', 'the way', 'rules' and whatnot are paramount in your mind.
Quite frankly I think they're a load of crap.
I may be wrong, but I explain it by having my own viewpoint, the Introspective Idealist. I have my own thoughts, values perceptions and beliefs.
Neither the Pro-Reality nor the Pro-Thought person is wrong; we merely have different takes on the matter.

Not that you'd understand perception theory to the depth that I do... but then again I don't undersand your way of thinking either.

Remove the engineers and it would collapse. Frankly PRAVDA and the remaining superfluous work need not be done when we do not even have someone to play the turn. The fact remains no one wishes to dedicate the time to playing the turn “properly.”

In the spirit of role playing that action would be more than appropriate, and some of us came here to role play.

But not all of us.

What’s wrong with aristocracy?

If it serves my own ends I have no problem.
There is nothing inherently wrong with aristocracy.

Except, no one does.

*ahem*

[Enigma_Nova]

Jamski-Enigma turn anyone?

While I don't care for impressing Voltaire, someone has to do the dirty work, and it might as well be us.