***Oh FuK the Secret's out***

[Enigma_Nova]

Great self-promote VeV. :b
Well my comment is over in the Main forum. I'll quote it here (lest I make a one-line post attacking VeV)


WRONG. I'm a member (just haven't posted yet)

Oh COME ON Jamski. Anyone with the desire and ability to play worth a damn for The Hive is in that forum.
Maybe if you spent less time skimming posts and overthrowing the government and more time thinking about the game, you might actually have a shot at being in the 31337_PH0R4M


FYI anyone who wants their opinion to matter will stay in the hive. What are you? Blackmailing? Or are you just a whining quitter?
Plus anyone whose opinion -is- worth a damn (and wants their opinion to be worth a damn) is going to that 31337 forum.

YOUR opinion isn't worth a damn because you can't be bothered to be a good player, as it was -YOU- that said playing SMAX with a calculator was not your idea of fun.
Well what for some of us, for whom that idea -is- fun?
Those that like to achieve, and conquer, as opposed to half-heartedly pushing formers onto moist squares and farming them?

What for those of us that want a home of tactics, away from the ?
The Hive was full of so we set up a forum where we could actually discuss things.
It's quite alright to divide the from the in my opinion, being an Elitist that I am.
So go the 31337 Forum.

IMO leave hive private forum for the and the 31337 forum for the strategy. Each to their own - the message is clear.
I can't understand why people would be angry at not being upperclass? Do you expect your life and value handed to you on a silver platter?

The current system works fine as it is. Thank you for arousing dissent amongst the current Hive populous.

[Jamski]

Oh COME ON Jamski. Anyone with the desire and ability to play worth a damn for The Hive is in that forum.

I have desire.
I have ability.
I am not in that forum.

There seems to be a small flaw in your logic, Enigma_Nova.

Anyway, I seek not to be inducted into a a private enclave, but to bring the private enclave back to the people. We are witnessing exactly what happened after the Communist revolution in Russia. The people are slowly betrayed, and excluded, while all talk about democracy and equality.

Bah. Whay am I even typing this?

-Jam

[Mead]

Mead Publicly Admonishes Jamski and Enigma_Nova

Because the Flaming has appeared in Several Threads, I will be posting this in several Threads. Please direct any and all responses to the Reconciliation Thread.


Both Enigma_Nova and Jamski are from what I see active participants in the Hive.
Both are Hive members who I value and respect.

Enigma_Nova has taken on a very active role in the planning and analysis of the Hive. I understand that E_N has even become a turn player in the very short time E_N has been a member and played well.

Jamski has also been a very active member of the Hive and has taken part in many discussions on Hiverian strategy. Jamski has also played an important part in the Hive Game. Currently Jamski feels excluded.

Recent posts from both E_N and Jamski worry me. These are a sample of the quotes:

First one from E_N directed at Jamski posted in the open to all ACDG Forum ###Oh F** the secret's out### (not just the internal Hive forum).

BEGIN QUOTE:

quote:The only members are Kody, Voltaire, HongHu and Micha.

WRONG. I'm a member (just haven't posted yet)

Oh COME ON Jamski. Anyone with the desire and ability to play worth a damn for The Hive is in that forum.
Maybe if you spent less time skimming posts and overthrowing the government and more time thinking about the game, you might actually have a shot at being in the 31337_PH0R4M
quote:Noone else's opinion matters squat, so we may as well all leave the Hive.

FYI anyone who wants their opinion to matter will stay in the hive. What are you? Blackmailing? Or are you just a whining quitter?
Plus anyone whose opinion -is- worth a damn (and wants their opinion to be worth a damn) is going to that 31337 forum.

YOUR opinion isn't worth a damn because you can't be bothered to be a good player, as it was -YOU- that said playing SMAX with a calculator was not your idea of fun.
Well what for some of us, for whom that idea -is- fun?
Those that like to achieve, and conquer, as opposed to half-heartedly pushing formers onto moist squares and farming them?

What for those of us that want a home of tactics, away from the ?
The Hive was full of so we set up a forum where we could actually discuss things.
It's quite alright to divide the from the in my opinion, being an Elitist that I am.
So go the 31337 Forum.

IMO leave hive private forum for the and the 31337 forum for the strategy. Each to their own - the message is clear.
I can't understand why people would be angry at not being upperclass? Do you expect your life and value handed to you on a silver platter?

The current system works fine as it is. Thank you for arousing dissent amongst the current Hive populous.

END QUOTE

My comments:
First, E_N I understand that you wanted to respond to Jamski in the same open forum he started, but even though Jamski should not have posted his internal complaints beyond the internal Hive Forums, you should not respond in the public forums.

Second, and of greater concern to me, I feel you insult all Hive members who were not a part of the inner (31337? What is that?) forum. I do not think that was your intent and more strongly feel that it is not the intent of Kody, Voltaire, Micha, Hong Hu, or other members of the inner forum. You call us, non-inner forum members lower class [?I can't understand why people would be angry at not being upperclass.?] E_N, please remember that the Glorious Hive does not have Classes.

I am a little disappointed to see the inner-forum go, even though I was not part of it, because I think it think served a useful purpose. There may come a time when sensitive discussions will need to be discussed without the participants fearing that their thoughts will be ridiculed, or worse leaked to other factions. Yes, I have read about concerns regarding moles and there may be some truth to it. Although I agree that an internal limited access forum was proper, all Hiverians should have known the existence of it, even if they did not have access to it.


BEGIN SECOND E_N QUOTE, posted in Internal Hive Forums

I arrived at 2149 and I'm already in the Shadow.
All you need is competency and a will to participate deeply.

Frankychan lacks the will to participate deeply
Jamski just lacks competency.
END SECOND E_N QUOTE

My comments:
I am assuming that these are your personal opinions and not that of those of the Hive.



Jamski has made a number of posts recently that have alleged improper actions of members of the Hive. He started a thread in a non-internal Hive forum to air Hive problems before non-Hive members. The below post is the one that concerns me the most.
BEGIN JAMSKI QUOTE (in Chat regarding shaddow, CC relationship and others, thankfully, on the Internal Hive Forums)
quote:All you need is competency and a will to participate deeply.


Poppycock. You just need to suck Voltaire's penis.
quote:Frankychan lacks the will to participate deeply

Or maybe he just lacks time. Maybe he doesn't have SMAX, and can't see the turns. Maybe he does have the will, but is excluded. In any case, his opinion is more valuable in that it is rarely given. Put him in the "Elite Forum"
quote:Jamski just lacks competency.

Have you ever seen one of my games? I am really quite competent. I am not, however, a mad counter of every last mineral, nor do I always take 15 hours per turn to ensure I take the optimum choice. SMAC is a game, and one should play it. I realise that for some winning easily is not enough (as I always do, playing instictively) but only winning perfectly will suffice. Oh well.

-Jam
END JAMSKI QUOTE


My comments:
Jamski, I understand that you are angry and being defensive, but you language and insults risk drawing the attention of the Moderators for your comments. Further than that you behave in a manner that risks to diminish your standing within the Hiverian community.



I admonish both of you.



Enigma_Nova
Jamski is a valued Hive player who should not be excluded from participation in this game. Also, we the non-inner forum members are not second-class citizens and should never thought of as such. This is the Hive not Morgan Enterprises. I would hope for a sincere clarification from you retracting the suggestion that there are different classes in the Hive.

Jamski
Your language to us, in particular, your allegation of what was required to gain access to the inner forum is inexcusable. I would hope for a sincere apology to all of us for the your statement. I value your inputs to the game and appreciate now knowing that there was an internal forum, but wish you to be more civil in your opposition.


To all:
I believe that this is an internal Hive matter that should be resolved within the Hive and should not draw attention of other factions nor the Moderators. Although I considered ignoring these posts in the hopes that it would all just go away, I feel that if we do not admonish the behavior, the posts will get worse.


Mead

PS

Mead is happy to see the involvement and passions aroused by the recent game events, but is saddened but the recent incivility he has seen within the Hive. He hopes the disturbing downward trend ceases and all come to their senses as Comrades in Arms.

[Vev]

Well we seem to be at another crucible - again.

We may be stronger for it or weaker. Heck we each have the power to help unmake the game, but there is no joy from that. There was something else I was to say but I've forgotten it ...

[Snowflake]

I would like to apologize to all the Hive team players for anything inappropriate said by any of the shaddow ministry members. The shaddow ministry is created and maintained by Kody and I. I believe Kody will agree with me that we will be responsible for it. If anybody was to take any blames, it will be the two of us. We will agree to accept any judgement from the Hive team. I will be happy to let everybody who's interested know how each and every shaddow members were chosen and who we were planning to invite if the shaddow was to continue (before the Hive forum became active again because of Jamksi's effort).

In addition, everybody is entitled to his own opinion, but I (together with Kody) would like to researve the right to explain the purpose of the shaddow ministry.

I believe both Jamski and Enigma as well as others are all trying to help with the team. So I agree with Mead and others, we should try refraining from flaming others and try to work with other cooperatively. With so much active energy we have right now with the team, I am confident that we can have an active forum and a successful team.

[Octavian X]

After further thought about the entire situation, I wish to apoligize as well, for my own knee-jerk reaction. After further explanations of the purpose of this ministry, I am willing to accept the fact that it's creation was necessary at the time.

However, I still angry at the fact that the creation and purpose of this ministry was not disclosed to the citizens of the Hive when it was created. Had we been informed of the existance of this ministry, it's mission, and organization in the first place, this entire mess would've been avoided.

Keeping things hidden from rival factions is fine; keeping things hidden from your own action will never result in anything good.

[Octavian X]

And, on a second thought...

I believe this situation is yet another sign that we really must reform the way the Hive is run. It surely wouldn't kill us to make some democratic reforms. I think it's entirely possible for us to create a democratic government with this 'shadow ministry' included as a legitimate branch of a democratic government.

[Voltaire]

Keeping things hidden from rival factions is fine; keeping things hidden from your own action will never result in anything good.

“To the rulers of the state then, if to any, it belongs of right to use falsehood, to deceive either enemies or their own citizens, for the good of the state: and no one else may meddle with this privilege.”--Plato

[Kody]

You know the blowing open of the shadow forum, instead of increasing democracy decreases it. Since the old system that everyone thought of as democratic was more of a dictatorship since nobody contributed.

Sure activity will jump now, but things will become boring after a week or two and the people that get bored drag the others down with them. I've seen it happen before.

With the shadow ministry people interested in contributing mingle more with people interested. So it helps keep activity alive.

[Snowflake]

The reason I wanted to keep it from being exposed to the public is because it is supposed to be a shaddow ministry. The shaddow is meant to stay in the dark. Do we know where the shaddow ministry of the UK or US is and who are in? Once it is exposed its use gets to be limited greatly. And everybody would come in for a visit, looking around. How nice the building is, how big the furnitures are. It is supposed to be used for work, not to let people tour and have fun in it.

It is planned when the Hive forum became reactivated and the shaddow ministry completed its purpose of filling in the gap and carrying the team accross the river, then its existence will be announced to the team. And I was hoping that the people will thank us for doing the work and not letting the team die when they were busy with something else. Well I guess it has not turned out the way I hoped. But that's ok. Ever since I started working for the team I have never thought of asking anything in return.

[Kody]

I've figured out what I want in return.

To be able to leave and face no recrimination for abandoning my team. Not having to worry that the Drone pact that I poured so many promises into being betrayed. To know that after I leave the hive will stay on track and not be a source of laughter for other factions.

When I left earlier all of those things didn't happen.

[Jamski]

Your language to us, in particular, your allegation of what was required to gain access to the inner forum is inexcusable. I would hope for a sincere apology to all of us for the your statement. I value your inputs to the game and appreciate now knowing that there was an internal forum, but wish you to be more civil in your opposition.

Sorry, I was MAD. Not like me to use strong language.

Anyway... I'm not so ANGRY today. At least everyone knows now that they are puppets, and if my outbursts have spoiled the illusion of the puppet show, then truth is sometimes less entertaining than reality. Umm, does that sentence mean anything?

It is planned when the Hive forum became reactivated and the shaddow ministry completed its purpose of filling in the gap and carrying the team accross the river, then its existence will be announced to the team. And I was hoping that the people will thank us for doing the work and not letting the team die when they were busy with something else. Well I guess it has not turned out the way I hoped. But that's ok. Ever since I started working for the team I have never thought of asking anything in return.

It is still unclear why its creation was never annouced of discussed. Was it just a need to feel special?

Also, if the Hive forum was dead, why was a new secret forum needed? Surely the secret forum could have discussed in this forum, since noone else was posting here (as you claim) Sorry, HongHu, this is nothing against YOU, but I have heard no good reason for having a secret forum a secret.

But its being closed now, yes? Or do I have to take my drastic action?

-Jam

[Snowflake]

Ok. Guess I was still not clear enough. It was an emergency procedure. The hive being "dead" means nobody was working (compare to nobody posting). The forum was created by Kody and I, the two people who feel that it was their duty to carry this team forward, even when everybody else doesn't seem to care, but with their limited time and energy, they felt that they cannot offord to spend 90% of their time on trying to get people work, trying to explain why some suggestions from people who do not bother to follow the game were wront, and hope to strimline the working process so that they are actually able to carry the great duty that they were so brave to take on. It was planned that each of them will make decisions on minor details such as worker allocations, crawler allocations and former allocations without having to consulting the other. Again this is so that they would be able to actually do all the work that needs to be done. Please remember other than the turn itself, there are also diplomatic relations to be taken care of, and they try to encorporate long term planning into the game so that the turn playing is not really a very simple matter.

During the time they have actually done more that they originally planned, that is they have not had the heart to leave the others in the team. So they have kept the forum current with all the relavent information, and they have communicated with anybody who has shown various degrees of interest of the game. What make them feel gratified is that not only the Chairman has been giving them the maximum support personally from the very beginning, their efforts have also been encouraged by growing participation from the players. Old players like Comrade Micha, Vander and Oct have been sharing the work load for them, and new members such as dacole, Enigma and Mead has started to learn about the game and started to be involved in the game deeper and deeper.

They have spended more than ten times of their time and energy than they can actually afford, simply trying to foster this growing participation. Every potential member has been contacted, through PMs, MSN chats or other means, first without the mentioning of the shaddow and simply encouraging them to participate and take on tasks, and when the member showed his real interest and capability, they are gradually informed about the existence of the shaddow ministry and accepted into it.

The reason that the shaddow ministry is not publically announced, is exactly to avoid a situation like what we have now. That people upon knowing it, demanding their "rights" to be included, without remembering their "reponsibilities" and "duties" to the team.

If this makes these people who are actually working "special", then why not? Yes I would say they ARE special. For they are willing to contribute part of their life for the team. They give instead of ask, work instead of demand.

The shaddow ministry is currently temporarily closed. Waiting for the team to make the final decision. Another reason that this forum may be helpful is that it provides certain shielding from potential infiltration from other factions. Therefore the team may want to investigate into this issue and make a collective decision regarding whether it should be reactivated. Also, if the team is to die again, I would hope there will be another two or three players who are willing to sacrifice their life for others, and reactivate the shaddow ministry to carry on what cannot be accomplished through the official government.

Dear Comrade Jamski, I hope you have not skimmed my post this time. Please think about what your "drastic action" is going to be. Is it simply your method of revenge for not being included? Is it going to harm the team that you and Voltaire created and you have loved? Is it going to hassle you for the rest of your life?

The shaddow ministry will not be closed because of your "threat". In fact your "threat" will almost for sure have the exact opposite effect. However, we are more mature and rational than that. Please remember, anger and threat will not solve anything, and will not bring you anywhere you'd like to be.

[Octavian X]

The shaddow ministry is currently temporarily closed. Waiting for the team to make the final decision.

May I, then, propose a referendum on the subject? A simple yes/no poll is all we really need...

[Enigma_Nova]

Originally posted by HongHu
I believe both Jamski and Enigma as well as others are all trying to help with the team.

I'm helping the team, as I perceive the 'team', and as I understand 'help'.
There's an important distinction in that we all have differing views on what the Hive is, and what would constitute an improvement.

I doubt your optimism, HongHu. Intra-factional strife is, in my opinion, an excellent way to find out who's got the guts to proceed.
As for teamwork? I always was a lone wolf. Sooner forsake you and your team then have my own agenda subservient to yours.