***Oh FuK the Secret's out***

[Jamski]

I found out today that the Hive has a secret forum, where everything is actually decided. The only members are Kody, Voltaire, HongHu and Micha. Noone else's opinion matters squat, so we may as well all leave the Hive. I have this confirmed from Kody and Voltaire, and have told them either they close it, or I make it public. This thread is copied in both the private and public forums. If the private forum is not either closed or opened to ALL members, then I sall be taking drastic action.

-Jam

[Voltaire]

...

[Jamski]

See - no denial.

Our opinons are worthless.

-Jam

[Frankychan]

Comrade Jamski,

While may not have the weight behind what I'm about to say due to my extended absence, please consider this.

Please try to consider that the "secret forum" was created due to the influx of Hive members that are considered "inactive". That forum could be the Hive's protection against spies and/or bugs by other factions. My only concern about said forum is that they are making policies and not even considering other active members opinions on them.

Although some of us (myself being number 1) don't necessarily contribute that much to the productivity of the Hive, I would like it (and would like to think) that when these members make policies, they at least see the rest of our concerns and try to do the best they can.

I guess that's all I have to say. I really want to see the Hive win this and want the "community" that is the spirit of the what the Human Hive represents. It might sound lame, but that's how I feel........so, that's it.

[Jamski]

Did you even know this existed? Do you think it's right that they make desisions that we know nothing of? How are them members chosen?

It STINKS, and it needs to be blown wide open.

-Jam

[Kody]

Frankychan,

I would stop reading the thread here if I felt the opinions of the hive community didn't matter.

No matter how frustrating it has been dealing with the larger group of hive members, I still do my best to bring them into the decision making. You see the smaller the group the easier it is to make decisions. Certain things like where to send a colony pod will only be brought up here if someone is actually interested in having a say. If someone continues to have a interest bringing up issues himself/herself and shows sound reasoning with what they are doing. Obviously they can be involved in the minor detail discussions. However, for the majority it was found that holding discussions on many minor details made their eyes glaze over. So instead only major issues are brought up publically.

Also certain diplomatic decisions and personal misgivings about certain alliances have been often brought up on MSN/email/private forum. Why? Because those aren't official stances, and if an infiltrator reads it they may get the wrong impression. Ironically we have no official secrets that aren't already in this forum. We tried, for about 1 week then realised it wouldn't work.

[Jamski]

My main beef is that the secret forum is SECRET, and closed. Say one day I was passionatly interested in the movements of every crawler. There's nothing I can do about it.

Hell, we didn't even know about it. How much does THAT suck? Why not have a thread that we all agree stays SERIOUS - that way the info is there for everyone.

-Jam

[Frankychan]

Thanks comrades on both of your inputs. I, personally, do not mind if there is a "private" forum. If you want to know something, just ask and I'm betting that those members would be more than willing to let you know.

I agree that minor detail stuff does make my eye's glaze over ( ) and I'm not that technical savvy so it's all good with me. Things like making a certain base have one less worker to increase blahblahblah don't really concern me. Things that concern me is the overall strength of the Hive and our diplomatic relations with other faction members.

......on a side note, every question I've asked has been answered very thoroughly and thoughtfully. Thanks.

[Octavian X]

The world must be coming to an end, because I'm tempted to listen to and agree with Jamski. *gasp*

I found out about this in a little diplomacy discussion a few nights ago, but was too tired to care.

Still, I would've appreciated it if regular posters were informed by the Council of Four, rather than by Jamski's ranting.

But now, I do fully agree with Jamski. Even if the rest of the citizenry don't comment that much, it still gives no right for an elite to seperate itself from the rest of the Hive. For the love of GooglieGod, this is a democracy game, where decisions are made by the community. Unfortunately, some members community are not SMAC experts, nor do we have 13 million hours a day to contribute to the Hive. That gives no one the right to hide itself from the majority.

If this 'elietist minority' would post polls on subjects, sponser and foster discussions in THIS forum, and open itself to the rest of the Hive, I'm sure you wouldn't see the levels of apathy you see now. However, when you move the decision making away from everyone else, it encourages this feeling that someone else is doing the work for us.

Basically, if Voltaire, Kody, HongHu, and Micha were holding these discussions in THIS forum, the rest might be more encouraged to add in.

If this secret forum isn't closed soon, I will seriously consider leaving the Hive for good.

[Jamski]

The world must be coming to an end, because I'm tempted to listen to and agree with Jamski. *gasp*

Hey, it can happen to the best of us

For the love of GooglieGod, this is a democracy game, where decisions are made by the community.

Yes, YES, YES, YES, YES, YES, YES, YES!,

Basically, if Voltaire, Kody, HongHu, and Micha were holding these discussions in THIS forum, the rest might be more encouraged to add in.

If this secret forum isn't closed soon, I will seriously consider leaving the Hive for good.

Exactly what I said when I found out. Let's see some response on this closing issue pretty soon. I think our member count has gone down one today anyway.

-Jam

[Kody]

You given me the choice of either doing things the old way or becoming a dictator forcing the issue and having people resign.

I've tried doing things in the old way and was very close to suffering a nervous breakdown from the pressure I was put under. Quite simply I had a play a complicated diplomatic dance within the faction so a decision could be made on every little issue. I had to constantly explain and re-explain issues because people kept coming up with incorrect points. When I didn't have a clue about an issue and asked a question in the apolyton forum, instead of getting some idea I got confused. During the last few months before I went into semi-retirement I was forced to turn to the drones for advice. Finally when I exerted too much pressure correcting things all discussion stopped even from those that knew enough to give good input.

The private forum has fixed those issues as the people in it know enough or self motivated enough that I don't have to correct other people's arguments. When I need to raise an issue I don't have a clue about, I actually get answers that don't confuse me.

I hate to say this, but if everyone in this forum understood half of what they needed to understand then true democracy would work. Don't say that you're not getting told the information, because you have been repeatively. There's very little that doesn't get to this forum too.

The main issues in the secret forum that haven't reached beyond it have been private "opinions" on the cycon relations (All official communication have all been cross posted over multiple forums). For example I would state some of my fears and hopes that I would be too embarrassed to put in the public forum. Mainly, because if posted here it would be turned against me as my official position since some of the people here don't think long enough to realise it's just me worrying.

Division of work load. Saying "Okay this needs to be done saying can you please do this." "I'm really stressed right now please can you take over this issue" "Sorry I did it when I said you should do that job" "I need to go on holidays, just warning you guys so someone else can do that job". We really only want reliable people to pick up slack, experience has shown that if in the public forum if a job is advertised and someone takes it up. It rarely gets done. So for someone to make it into the private forum they need to show they're able to do what they said they would do. Otherwise that work will immediately fall back onto the lap of people that really don't want it.

Then we have game related stuff like "No no the crawler should have gone to that square, because we needed the +2 nuts there", "I think we can slam the probe in if we move along this route, I'll check with buster for the university infiltration" "Kody you made a mistake with placing a worker on a forest instead of a forest river." "Yeah sorry no simulator anymore". If placed in the public forum when I give criticism of things it seems more like a personal attack to the person it's directed at. Also the mistake I made would probably be taunted and made into a joke.

I hoped that your happy Jamski because neither option is really going to work. Even if I wanted to I can't be a dictator, but if I continue along this current path I will become one. As a dictator I won't be able to draw upon the rest of the hive for decisions, they just won't expect me to actually care. Making decisions by myself would just weigh too heavily on my heart.

Every decision I have made myself so far has been carefully weighed from what I understand from speaking to and reading all your posts. As a dictator I won't be able to figure out what exactly people actually want. You see I can't always use the actual opinions on what to do from people if there's some flaw in the information they're working off. I look instead at the reason why people want to do what they've stated. I look at what reactions people have to certain ideas or situations brought up. From that I make decisions. Those kinds of things are very difficult to find out if I'm not a equal in other people's eyes.

The decisions I've made are quite many and usually minor. They're to do with the tone a diplomatic message should take. Whether to bring up the possibility of a trade. What value each of the trade items in a trade are worth to the hive. Whether to reassure another faction or to let the diplomatic situation happen by itself. Whether to build more crawlers or formers.

So far the only two major decision I have made are the hidden forum, and to exert pressure holding the hive to honest dealings with other factions. All others major decisions that often seem to have come from me have been channelled through the hive or through voltaire.

As for actual leaders. So far every capable leader will not be accepted (due to being new) or doesn't want the job.

Yes unofficially I'm the main decision maker of this faction, but I don't want this job. I'm tried of SMAX, as I've looked too deeply at it and it's removed all the fun. The diplomacy, and running the hive is a headache that chews up my time as you wouldn't believe. The only thing keeping me here is a twisted sense of duty and a promise I made to a friend.

If you really dislike the way I'm running things or the decisions that I make then step up and run the faction. Make a government system that actually works then I'll find peace at last, I really want to quit and the day I came back I still wanted to quit.

The cycon issue that has been the recent main discussion was brought up before in the public forum 3 times. Each time I've tried to force a decision without actually taking complete control. First time was way back in July. No decision was made as everyone thought it was too early. Second time back in October, again everyone decided to wait and see. This is the third time and I don't see any decision in sight unless someone takes the initiative.

So far all the only other people that have stepped forward and tried to gather support are people interested in glory and power. Not in running this faction. They see it as a luxury not a job, and when I left the power vacuum a month ago it turned the perks got used, but the mundane issues got ignored.

Where we shall go from here I don't know, but if there is a return to the old system I won't be able to run it. If it becomes a dictatorship I won't be able to run it either.

[Octavian X]

Kody, you do have a point. I admire your dedication, and willingness to serve the Hive.

Running away from explaning things to newbies isn't an answer, though. I urge you to again post your turn logs in this forum, along with 'plain english' explanations of what you did and why. New team members will read these logs, and hopefully become better SMAC players for it, educating the citizenry and creating better-informed Hiverians who can help out after this informal education. Call it an apprenticeship.

If misinformed, or simply wrong, arguments bother you, it won't help to avoid them althogether. By running away to those who already understand, you're helping to breed this ignorance among people. If an honest effort was truly made to better inform people was made, this problem could be even avoided entirely - a simple, single thread summing up all our stances on everything would be a great help.

You're dictator concerns are warranted as well. I'd recommend just stepping back (again). Don't try to make a decision for anyone - post a poll, and use that to take a course of action. My past democracy game experience has taught me, if all else fails, post a poll. Polls are the best was to 'force' a decision by the people. Those too shy to comment will vote, anyway. People will voice their opinions based on the option they chose. The results will be much more definite compared to just a regular discussion.

There's a correct path to follow, and that path doesn't involve a seperate forum.

[Snowflake]

I would like to say that I appreciate all the discussions. Comrade Frankychan has shown excellent grasp and understanding of the game and the situation. I really appreciated your posts. Comrade Oct has been trying his hardest to work for the team too and you have made many good suggestions. The only reason that you have not been invited to the shaddow forum is because you had said that you were busy at moderating MZO civIII demo games and we belived that you will not be able to be more involved than you currently have.

[Voltaire]

I am not going to respond to you in the public copy thread of this Jamski, nor do I think any other Hiver should, you have every right to bring up any grievance you have against this government and its administration before the People, but you have no right to do it before the entirety of Planet.

Let me say this out so that all may head, I could care less if all the other factions agreed with you that this is a “democracy”-game and that everything should be done in the Hive forums. What they said does not matter, we are the Hive and we will do things our way for one. The primary responsibility of this government, of all members of the Hive, is not to some notion of democracy which you cling to but hardly believe in, but to the Hive itself. If a majority decision is wrong, we must correct it, I will not allow the Hive to suffer at the hands of the majority who knows not what they do.

Furthermore let this be said so that it is clear what I think, to the many of you who do not contribute to the Hive, to the many of you who care not to carry out a small task when it has been requested of you since Kody cannot do everything himself, I do not even consider that you should have a say in the matter. Who are you to complain about what the “elite” are doing? Do you have some glorified image of us sitting around a table eating caviar laughing and making decisions about the Hive arbitrarily? Making a decision is difficult, much discussion and time goes into it. Playing the turn is even more difficult, it consumes much time which would quite frankly be spent on better things. You think being part of the “elite” is fun, I would beg you to challenge that misconception, you want to be part of the “elite”, fine by all means everyone can be admitted if they will just actually care to do some work. Until then you have no right to complain.

Jamski if you so loved democracy where were you before as Deputy Chairman defending it to the death as you so do now? We have never had a democracy, the illusion of it perhaps, but never a democracy, most of our discussion instead of taking place on forum took place over MSN, the only thing that has changed is the medium of the discussion, not the fact that most of it does not take place before public eyes, but because we wish to hide anything, but because the public does not discuss anything relevant most of the time, those people who care and have something to contribute find a way to do it, as it the case of Frankychan and Mead. If you have something to say it, say it, it will be heard I assure you.

But Jamski, you are in this because you want to be part of the elite, you want to join this supposed “elite” of ours. Fine, if you prove yourself by doing work you will be welcomed with open arms, but you will not gain anything by trying to bully us into letting you in. You resent the fact that you’re no longer Deputy Chairman, and I regret the fact that I did not replace you long ago with someone worth of the post, I offered it to HongHu many times but she declined even though she was more the qualified for the job.

I rant, but I had to get that off of my chest. Accuse us of whatever you will, elitism and whatnot I do not care, but ask yourselves what have you done for the Hive? And if you say nothing, but because you have had no opportunity, well then I do not think there is much to discuss for clearly you have. The Hive works on a principle of meritocracy, people are promoted by merit, so if you want a job you damn well better do it.

[Vev]

I have to agree the new forum sounds drearily dull for people to spam. Reading it won't be too much fun either. I'm not too fussed in missing out. I don't have the time to help out much.

But I can still contribute to the Hive and that is why I've offered myself as a 'Ask-me-if-you-need-my-help Advisor' in the field of tactical combat resolution. For those who have seen my thread in the General/Help forum, they would know how seriously I take probabilistic calculations and statistical analysis. But since there isn't use for me and no one else is interested in solving a strange mystery, I see no need to work on it at the moment.

To give you guys an idea what I have created, I have set up a scenario with 500 units vs 500 units to give a rough estimate of the combat outcomes. Those units can have their strengths adjusted through upgrading and if required, Alphax.txt editation to meet the desired value.