HIVE diplomatic exchanges

[MrWhereItsAt]

Originally posted by Maniac
Oh yeah, PEACE is apparently researching NonlMath.

Where does such info come from?

Some very complexd negotiating here, and I am struggling a little still with some of the abbreviations. I will get my poster out when I get home from work.

Can we get a list here of 'freebies' the Hive has given us (requested or spontaneous) and any deals made thusfar that favour us? This way we can keep track of how much they may feel we are in their debt and keep this in mind for the near future deals. Also, I have to add that if/when we go through with ledning the Hive the ability to build both Cruisers and Impact weapons (and Marine ability too?), we will be doing them a HUGE favour. They seem to cling to their precious high tech rate and shum so many techs becuase of it. In this trade they will be in OUR debt as, we never actually give them anything tangible, but we are granting them in effect several techs without them risking their tech rate. This should be remebered as a great service by us, whatever they do.

From what I can tell, negotiations continue, and it may be a little premature to go too far with them until we actually GET some tech from PEACE. Also, Gene Splicing and the Nut restriction don't seem greatly urgent to me, as more food will just mean a greater need to reign in our pop growth in most bases. This will be great when the war is over and we can buld Rec Commons, but for the time being we can' handle much more pop in most bases, so we shouldn' shirk from postponing this a little if it is necessary.

[Maniac]

Deleted. You never know who reads this forum.

[Googlie]

Originally posted by Maniac
I'd also like to know about Kody's B-drone trick

Kody's B-Drone exploit is legitimate - and comes at some small cost to the Hive itself

G.

[Maniac]

Kody's B-Drone exploit

If you too agree it is an exploit, in the sense that it was probably not intended by the game designers and that it can hardly be explained in roleplay terms, shouldn't we more or less per definition consider it illegitimate? After all, with the exception of a few things such as pod booming or the stockpile energy bug (of which not allowing it would give an unfair advantage of builders over warmongers), aren't all currently known exploits and bugs forbidden in all MP games?
AFAIK Kody's B-Drone exploit allowes one to effect the B-Drones of other factions. Unless this is done by nothing else than correctly timing the founding of new bases, isn't this exploit just as serious as for example changing the number of specialists in bases of an allied faction?

[Impaler[WrG]]

I share your conserne of Kody's opinon towards us. But their is good news.

He has just responded with what I belive is the closest thing to an apology we will see on the issue of accusing me of lieing to him. He says he had confirmed the validity of my method. I suspect this means Kody will have egg on his face within the Hive power structure as he indicated he was the most Anti-Cycon member their and has likly raised this supposed "lie" up as an example to his fellow Hivarians on why we should not be trusted.

Along with HongHu's release of valuable infiltration data to us, I would think that their has been an overall move towards a more Pro-Cycon centement in the Hive. We should initiate the Pact ASAP in my opinion, ask the Hive is they want to make the reqest in their 2150 turn.

[Googlie]

LOL - I called it an "exploit" rather than your term "trick" only because I couldn't spell "manouever"

I do not consider it a "bug" nor a "cheat". IMO it is in the same category as changing to Dem/Planned for the purposes of Pop Booming, or building a Planetbuster as soon as available (so as to immediately have prototyped every subsequent weapon), or simultaneosuly starting an SP in multiple bases so as to have a partially built SP when the enxt enabling tech is discovered.

Three widely diifferent techniques to illustrate what is permissable within the rules - I judge Kody's to be in that category. All have short-term deleterious effects on efficiency or production - so does Kody's.

If there is a possible analogy, (none of the 3 examples cited above had any negative effect on another faction, whereas Kody's does) it would be to let a base go into drone riots so that it defects to another faction (likely the Drones), then immediately recapture that base with (if the CyCon) the opportunity to steal a tech. That would be shady, but legitimate.

And his could be explained in roleplay terms. If it were as simple as the timing of a new base, then to the extent that Hive beurocracy was effected - resulting in perhaps the creation of a specialist ir a change in SE allocations, and word of this filters thru the grapevine to citizens of other factions, they might then consider themselves disadvantaged and start agitating for a holotheater, rec commons or whatever. And if this "passing the drone problem on" can be targeted to a specific faction - and perhaps even a base within that faction - then the Hive proselytizers are just doing a bang-up job spreading their sedition and "good life" leaflets, etc

G.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]
I share your conserne of Kody's opinon towards us. But their is good news.

He has just responded with what I belive is the closest thing to an apology we will see on the issue of accusing me of lieing to him. He says he had confirmed the validity of my method. I suspect this means Kody will have egg on his face within the Hive power structure as he indicated he was the most Anti-Cycon member their and has likly raised this supposed "lie" up as an example to his fellow Hivarians on why we should not be trusted.

Along with HongHu's release of valuable infiltration data to us, I would think that their has been an overall move towards a more Pro-Cycon centement in the Hive. We should initiate the Pact ASAP in my opinion, ask the Hive is they want to make the reqest in their 2150 turn.

The Hive is becoming far more Pro-CyCon, due to giving them the war info I posted before. They had given us things, without return. I have assured HongHu of our intentions and things are going a lot better now. Kody now believes that Impaler has not cheated btw. However there are a few things to clear up.

Here are our latest PMs sent last night and this evening:

Dear Function Drogue,

I greatly appreciate your unreserved trust. The PEACE information is already prepared for you. I will send it to you tonight through MSN if I can't find anybody who can do it sooner. Please let me know if you need more assistance.

We have discussed 3 way victory with the Drones. The Drones' feeling is that a 3 way victory of the largest factions is too easy and unfair to the others. They also believe Googlie will not support this idea. However they have expressed their understanding toward Hive's sentiment regarding CyCons. They have also suggested dip victory as a potential solution. Currently we have agreed to leave this discussion until later.

Regarding PEG my understanding is that Hive also has an interest in it. However if we are going into deeper cooperations in tech reseach I believe there can be ways for us to negotiate current and future SPs. I will get back to you on this more after I consulted with the senior leaders in the Hive.

I have shared your PM with the senior leaderships but have not posted your PM on the Hive forum. I do not want you to risk information leaks because you have trusted us. It is always better to be careful although the forum infiltration may not be a real problem.

Again I would like to express my appreciation on your trust.

Ambassador HongHu

And this one that made me smile a little :

Just want to make sure you are alerted that the University is intending to quit the game. The entire game may need to be rethought.

(I'm actually thinking breaking pact with Drones now.

Dual victory?

[Drogue]

Oh, and HongHu just told me in chat:

I think Kody has offered you pact. We are still thinking about the trade, [because] adapt may be less valuable if we dont get the sp.

Hence I have offered them 20ec as a sweetener. I will go up to 30 or even 40ec if I am allowed, if needs be?

[Drogue]

Have sent the PEACE map, with our bases taken out, to HongHu. They have base places, and could do it themselves, but this saves them the trouble.

[Drogue]

Sorry for another post in a row, but I've posted on the VoyForums and sent a PM to Kody, to try to move things forward and clear up the distrust that happened. I think things are ok now. HongHu talks about it as if it's just been a misunderstanding, as it was, and all is good again

Here's the PM to Kody:

Kody,

I have posted in the VoyForum, both about the issues with you and Impaler, discussion I've has with HongHu and Pact/trade deals. I just wanted to ask if there was anything I can do to ease your trust.

I can assure you that Impaler has not cheated in any way, that no CyCon has informants in other factions (I would immediatly evict them if they were found cheating) and that we have no other allies or agendas. I have given our battle plans against PEACE to HongHu, as well as debating my/our views towards any action against PUT, and our alliance. I have also emailed ehr a map of PEACE territory we did from our 2141 pact information. I hope this helps to ease your concerns. If there is any more information you would like, or anything I can do to help, please do not hesitate to ask. As the current External Affairs Function, thus the official spokesman for the CyCon, I wanted to bring explain things to you. If I checked VoyForums more regularly I could have prevented a lot of this I feel. I am sorry for any misunderstanding between Impaler and yourself.

Yours,
- Drogue

It's a little grovelling, because I don't want to try to help relations, and I'm not above grovelling to get it, since it costs us nothing

[Drogue]

Have received reply from Kody:

Looking back at the PMs with Impaler I jumped to the wrong conclusion and probably over-reacted. I have to admit that the pirate-cycon issue raised doubt in my mind of the integrity of the cycon. At the time it appeared Implaer was trying to be devious and probe for information rather than directly asking.

Honghu is pushing most of the policy regarding the cycon. She seemed to be completely convinced that you guys are trustworthy. At the moment I am for a pact, however still hold some reservations.

Most of the hive wants the cycon pacted simply because we'll have the most diplomatic alliances in the game. *roll eyes*

The smarter ones don't seem interested in the diplomancy and just trust Honghu and me for what the hive should do diplomatically. Which is kindof sad because I would perfer to hear their opinions.

And have replied:

I understand that. Some CyCons are not as strong as others (well, just Impaler actually). However I am strongly Pro-Hive. I understand the problems regarding PEACE, but please understand that I am only human. When I am insulted, accused, have sarcastic and snide comments made about me by their diplomatic counsel, I realise that enough is enough. I will take more than a little pleasure in seeing what happens when we attack, and while this is most un-CyCon like, I will enjoy it greatly Please understand that that was a completely isolated issue.

I think HongHu said it best about Impaler when she said that he was almost trying to have an intelligence competition with you.

The reason HongHu is convinced of our trustworthyness, as Jamski was before he left, is because I have always disclosed information to her. I have been chastised for this among the CyCon, but only a little after we first me, I've told her we were going to attack PEACE and discussed the future and co-operative victory. Much of which was kept from the rest of the Hive, until we were sure that PEACE wouldn't find out our plans. This was the same with our reluctance to pact earlier. HongHu and I also have spoken a little personally, so there is some trust built there (she helped me sort things out with my girlfriend).

I look at it logically. The biggest chance we have to win is in an alliance with the Hive. It works on an RP level, that a totalitarian and communist system would only be completely efficient if the citizens were telepathic. Also on game terms, one research faction and one build/militaristic faction seems to be a good match. And most importantly on a fun level. If this game drags on for another year, people will lose interest and the game will stalemate. If we finish it in about 3-6 months, we will finish the game, have enough time to enjoy it but not to get bored. Also, C is a game set on the premise of not repeating the mistakes of old earth. If we can have a co-operative victory to show that co-operation works and that competition is one of those mistakes, it goes with the communist ideal, and also is quite a nice legacy for the DG.

I would rather win co-op with the Hive than on our own. It is also our best shot at victory. Therefore, logically, it is what I put my efforts into making happen.

In short, while I cannot prove to you our intentions, I can only explain that our most logical position is one of honesty and trust with the Hive. I trust the Hive. I know that we are worthy of Hive trust. As such we have given you all the battle and future tech plans we have. We would be happy to discuss future tech paths, so that we can direct and trade our techs.

I understand your doubts. I hope I can show you that they are unfounded, as time and our pact progresses.

- Drogue

PS. With regards to the Planetary Council, I have posted a poll to get an official result, but I'm pretty sure it will be unanimously in favour of a Hive vote.

The last bit may seem a bit much, but I'm pretty sure that it makes no difference and that we're mostly for it, and the stronger we seem, the more they trust us. If we're going to vote yes, I can seem pretty confident of it, because it says "we're not just going to vote yes, it was so obvious that I knew it already".

[Impaler[WrG]]

I have sent the following to Kody and recived his Reply.

It seems we will be reciving an Unaccepted Pact offer from the Hive this turn. Also we have some free Land Marks.


quote:


Greatings Comrad Kody.

I trust that with the confirmation of the base location tecniques I described to you their are no longer any stains upon the Cycons reputation due to this unfortunate miscalculation.

You will be pleased to know that your Infiltration data has been recived, feed into Cycon central processing and is proving valuble.

Also Cycon has accepted your Pact offer and we will make the Pact request with you this turn, it is unfortunate you had alredy completed your turn (that was a fast one for you guys, good job) or we could have had you offer the Pact to us and accepted it that much earlier.

As for now we must wait on the fait of UNI to begin our war, expect a Cycon Declaration of War to be posted soon on the main forum. It will contian mostly fluff and "We will assimilate you, resistence is futile" stuff but it will also lay out a few of the real diplomatic events that cause us to go to war with PEACE. Sugjest you make a brief declaration of your own in response.


Kody responds


I put a pact in your diplomatic window, but I wasn't sure what you wanted so I didn't click accept. I believe 3 landmarks available to you too.

We're starting the election too. Hrmm should have posted about that.

[Drogue]

Impaler: Thanks for the PM, but that was all cleared up. Kody offered a pact accepted last turn, hence we have our poll on whether or not to accept. Thanks for clearing it up though. Looks like all is good now

[Googlie]

See my post here

[Drogue]

Kody has posted in VoyForums:

If you can get SOTHB in our dipolmatic window by the hive's next turn, you can have "loyalty" in exchange.

The value of it increased suddenly as I've realised the hive tech rate will increase significantly due to planetary governorship, and Honghu and me finally getting the pop booming back on track (I was impressed she got it running when she ran the turn and I didn't have to give a 2 hour tutorial to teach her). So researching Bioengineering may be soon enough to make a difference. We need it next turn as our covert ops will be soon undertaking a mission in the university.

The other trade I would agree to is Planetary Energy Grid for one restricting lifting tech (possibly ecological engineering or environmental economics) and one other tech. If we do close a trade for adaptive economics with the SP it'll be a case of "please hold the tech for us for 15 years while we finish this other beeline".

I hate to admit this but the whole prototype trading thing with the cycon while useful, was fairly low on our priority list. Simply because of the travel time involved in getting the prototypes. The hive really didn't want any of your techs at that stage, and I believed the cycon would dislike the hive if we refused to somehow work a deal for techs.

I have replied as:

So the available trades are:
SoHB pre-accepted for Doc: Loyalty.
Adapt Econ and giving you the PEG for Env Econ and one other tech.
Adapt Econ without the PEG for one tech, in 15 years.

I will put it to the CyCon immediately. If we can get SoHB the first trade seems good. As for the other two, I have no idea how strongly the others feel about the PEG, but I'm pretty sure they'd agree to one of them.

Opinions? Can we get SoHB? Is the PEG worth 2 techs? IMHO yes. I think getting Env Econ (tree farms :-D) or Eco Eng (mines and boreholes ) as well as another is worth more than the PEG. What other should we ask for? Doc: Loyalty if we can't do the first trade? Or something else?