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  • A base at 81, 63 sounds terrific, and we gain nothing good by moving it to 80, 62 - in fact we lose the use of one nuts on a river!

    A new idea Impaler came up with in chat - moving the 2/1/1 worker in Logic Loop to the Solar South of it - we lose a food (slows the inevitable growth to an extra drone) and gains us 2 energy - one from the solar and one from trade with PEACE. Since this is temporary, perhaps we should go for it to make the most of our treaty with them whilst it lasts.

    Just throwing something out - at its current 2 pop, DBTSverse can build a Colony pod in 6 turns, and grows in 6 turns - this may be useful for cranking out fast Pods. It is somewhat far away from areas we can settle at present, but a quick Transport in Zetaris could help shunt them to where they are needed in the East faster than anything else could. As for the moment in Zetaris, building Tanks sounds good, as long as we realise we can and may need to switch to a military unit like another Cruiser at short notice if we need it. Tanks will only take about 4 turns soon anyway, so they won't take much from the war effort.

    Forests near that fungus bit could lead to further Forest expansion in an otherwise barren area, and maybe even eat some fungus - the sooner the better of course, but there would be little need of them to be worked, so we should treat this as a lesser priority.

    I do think we need more formers, but for the moment we have to seal the war result - when that is done we can relax a bit and concentrate on either lots of formers and few pods (formers to give growing populations more tiles to work), or lots of pods to settle with and fewer formers (less need for new tiles with no/less growth in the current bases). To err is human, to err on the side of caution until we have educated PEACE is logical. Are we not both?
    Consul.

    Back to the ROOTS of addiction. My first missed poll!

    Comment


    • MWIA and Impaler, I'll include the Logic Loop worker switch and the Zetarian farm & solar collector plans in the SF (Second Function) thread.

      As for the DBTSverse Portal idea, MWIA, you're right DBTS is located rather far away from our virgin territories. You then say a transport could solve that, but shouldn't we use every transport we have or will have for the coming war effort?

      As for the moment in Zetaris, building Tanks sounds good, as long as we realise we can and may need to switch to a military unit like another Cruiser at short notice if we need it. Tanks will only take about 4 turns soon anyway, so they won't take much from the war effort.
      But in the War Preparations thread you say yourself we only have one impact cruiser planned right now. Shouldn't it therefore be better to start production on a second one in Zetaris right away?
      Contraria sunt Complementa. -- Niels Bohr
      Mods: SMAniaC (SMAC) & Planetfall (Civ4)

      Comment


      • You are of course correct about that Maniac - a temporary programming bug in the new version of the OS my implants use. A Cruiser straight away would be the safest option to go for. It will inevitably end up useful whatever the war outcome.

        As for the possibility of DBTSverse as a Colony Pod farm, it doesn;t need to be now, but it could be useful when this war is behind us, as I hope we are not settling too much during hostilities!
        Consul.

        Back to the ROOTS of addiction. My first missed poll!

        Comment


        • Impaler walks into his new office early on the day of his first term. After placing his Net Node link and Nural Amplifier anteni on the Desk he notices an Engraved Plaque made from the hull of the Unity lander itself, aparently left behind by Corelion Omega 9. It Reads "And upon this Rock we build our Home". A puzzling expresion, at first he is about to put the thing away but on second though desides to display it instead. These Anchient momentos of Emotion remind us of how far we have come and how far we have yet to go.

          Impaler plops down in his cair rubbing his temples. His implants still ache from intense yet fruitfull Global Geography calculations. Already the entire southern Hemisphere of Planet has been analized for siesmic vibrations that indicate the presense of distant human bases. Painstaking Algorithmic refractions by Mr. WIA have sifted recorded Radio wave comunications with the Nautilus Pirates colected decades ago durring friendlier relations by then Prime Function Drouge have yealded a complete map of their territory. It is indeed true what they say "If I have seen far, it is because I have stood on the shoulders of Giants", If only the anchient full humans could have done it the Cycon way, emotionless teamwork enchanced by cybornetic implants speeds up the process a hundred fold.

          Now the Conciusness buzzes with activity as the new data is digested. Already plans have crystalized. By universal agreement the upcoming war with PEACE shall comence in the Year 2152, this is as they say is T-Turn. If all goes acording to plan Alexandria and Margaritaville will both fall to overwelming Cycon forces and the Pirate data network will be infiltrated by our most skilled Probe Teams. All activity now focuses on completing the nessary training regiments and ship Construction sceduals and seeing too it that they reach their apropraiate way points on time.

          Well not all activity ofcorse. Internal Affairs still need to be tended too, its been noted that Cycon families are having an exceptionaly low number of children and the Conciousness is falling behind in population. Steps will need to be taken to accelerate growth rates, most likly the price of Contraceptives will be incressed, New childrens chreches will be ordered and nutrient paste production will be incressed.

          Well better Get too it A Functions work is never done.


          Portal - I think we should change to either Recycling Tanks OR a Foil Probe. The Foil Probe takes 6 turns (as opesed to the ridiculous 9 for a Cruiser Probe). The Probe Team being built their now cant even get made and reach Bolean in time for catch the boat so A Foil is a better bet because of its high flexibility, also note that it will get the Navy yard bonus. Tanks will take a bit less time and will help grow the base which is sorely needed. If we go Probe we MUST go Tanks next.

          Pi Squared - Builds another Impact Cruiser

          Bolean Bay - A plan I came up with a bit Ago. Hurry the Crawler that should take 12 energy and save several turns. Also move the worker on to the Nut bonus which should cut around 10 turns off Growth and grow Bolean in 3-4 turns. The Crawler gets mins from the forest and the new worker then can go back to the other Forest and we will have a greatly incressed growth rate and mineral intake.

          Matrix - If the Cost to Hurry the Scout patrol is Reasonable such as under 10 I say we do it as that base could be destroyed by a random worm attack.


          FORMERS

          Former at Binary bastion (65,81) build a farm ware it is.
          Former at (67,79) move into Bolean Bay and ReHome their, then if it can move to (69,79) and build a farm and Solar colector.
          Former adjacent to Matrix moves to the flat Arid tile adjacent to the Monolith and Builds Forest
          Former on the Matrix Nut Bonus builds Farm then solar, looks like we can both have our way Manic



          UNITS

          Laser Cruiser - Hug the coast of the island and proceed south west, you will need to get near the souther tip of the island. Next turn look at Calico Island and then go south before they see you. Next turn fly by Sea Lurk and see whats lurking their again get out of base radius before your seen and get ready to do Margaritaville on the next turn in the same mannor. By now reinforcments are ariving and the Laser Cruiser has been upgraded (maybe) and it helps attack.

          If we want 2 Probes in our attack on Alexandria then we will need to use either the one in Pi Square or Bolean Bay in addition too the one that is between Apolyton and Logic Loop. If we want to use the Pi Square one then it needs to start moving NOW or it can't catch the Boat. And no the Probe Team in Portal wont do either unless we spent a lot on rushing it, which I dont advise.

          The first impact Cruiser (Alpha Pi) moves south hugging our coast, try to end up near the fungus on our coast. From their it can scout Margaritaville or Alexandria as needed and return to our coast without being seen.


          Side Note

          Its been sugjested that we name our units for easier references when the war is thick and heavy. I sugjest that we use base names that got low votes as long as they sound good. For Example Node Runner would be a great ship name (sugjesting that for the Zetaris Cruiser). Perhaps we should open up a unit name thread, though poling them is a bit too much work lets keep it informal.
          Companions the creator seeks, not corpses, not herds and believers. Fellow creators, the creator seeks - those who write new values on new tablets. Companions the creator seeks, and fellow harvesters; for everything about him is ripe for the harvest. - Thus spoke Zarathustra, Fredrick Nietzsche

          Comment


          • All of your former and base order changes sound fantastic Impaler. You seem to have covered growing bases earlier than currently expected also, without impacting on their production for the war.

            Haven't looked closely enough to call on the war orders, but I sure will...
            Consul.

            Back to the ROOTS of addiction. My first missed poll!

            Comment


            • Just Realized that I forgort about the 2 Formers near Logic Loop. I would recomend that they go down the main road south of Logic Loop and build a Mine on the Coastal Mountinous tile. Their is already road their and our cralwers will be able to extract more minerals their then they would from a Forest. Only thing is we will need Ecological Enginering for their to be much point and thats not a shure thing in the amount of time it would take for 2 formers to make a mine.

              On the other hand once we have Ecological Enginering I will want to start a BoreHole in the Flat Barren tile next to Bolean Bay so this is definatly a debatable thing. Other options include building a road directly between Logic Loop and Aurora, chewing up Fungus and assisting the former a bit east of Apolyton Prime that is working on farms and Solars.
              Companions the creator seeks, not corpses, not herds and believers. Fellow creators, the creator seeks - those who write new values on new tablets. Companions the creator seeks, and fellow harvesters; for everything about him is ripe for the harvest. - Thus spoke Zarathustra, Fredrick Nietzsche

              Comment


              • Great intro story, Impaler.

                Regarding DBTSverse Portal: to probe foil
                Pi Square - consider the 4-1-8 cruiser done.
                Boolean Bay - agreed. I'd propose to rush the crawler full. That would cost a bit more than 12 credits though.
                Matrix - as less than 10 mins are accumulated the hurry cost will probably be higher than 10.
                Former at Binary bastion (65,81) build a farm -
                Former at (67,79) -
                Former adjacent to Matrix -

                Former on the Matrix Nut Bonus builds Farm then solar, looks like we can both have our way Maniac
                In the chat Impaler agreed to wait with building a solar collector, as we might get EcoEng and condensers soon. Still a farm though.

                Former adjacent to Matrix moves to the flat Arid tile adjacent to the Monolith and Builds Forest
                Impaler had valid arguments in favour of this. Another idea of me was to build a road there first to connect Aurora to MM. However that would take eight turns. Unless we could use the bug that if you use "Ctrl+R" to build roads, that you can then build roads on fungus even before CentMed, reducing the time to two turns. Would that be allowed? IIRC it isn't mentioned in the official game rules for this DG, but it is rather obviously a bug. Googlie?

                Regarding the LL formers, I proposed the idea of letting them build a road towards MM on the tiles (72.20)->(74.70)with possible fungus removal depending on allowed use of bug->(74.72). (76.72) would already have a road if my above idea for the (76.72) former was followed.

                Arguments in favour:
                *We'll need to build roads to our eastern bases anyway. Why not do it now, now those two formers have no other urgent tasks?
                *In a far past we had planned to build a base on (74.70). If that's still ok, we would have to defungalize that tile anyway.
                Contraria sunt Complementa. -- Niels Bohr
                Mods: SMAniaC (SMAC) & Planetfall (Civ4)

                Comment


                • Some quick comments before I have to leave and prolly won't have access to a computer for the next 18 hours:

                  Impaler, I agree with the war acceleration plan you posted in the orders thread, and will execute it tomorrow of no other info turns up that would require yet another change of plan. One question though: should we really hurry Node Runner in Zetaris for 34 credits? We have 203 credits now. 65 will be used for the acceleration. 19 for hurrying the BB crawler. You would like to hurry Beta Pi. I would like to upgrade Love Boat (90 credits ). Then there's a possible SE switch to democracy in the near future (40 credits). There's the matter of paying the Hive for their infiltrator info and possibly PUT a bit for EcoEng. And we might also need some cash to rush some defensive unit in a captured base and keep our energy reserves on an acceptable level (IIRC the size of your energy reserve also influences the cost for others to mind control one of our units or bases). Since Node Runner will be too late anyhow for an attack MY 2150, is it worth it using our precious cash to hurry it?
                  Contraria sunt Complementa. -- Niels Bohr
                  Mods: SMAniaC (SMAC) & Planetfall (Civ4)

                  Comment


                  • Internal Affairs: 2150

                    Zetaris - Hurry Crusier 10 Credits

                    Portal - Begin moving scout patrol to Pi Square (in the event of emergency upgrading we want the unit with Higher Morale, Pi's low morale scout will go to Portal next turn)

                    Logic Loop - Set new production to Crawler (If we are going to pop the Ocean Pod then switch to a Net Node durring the poping so that we may potentialy get this building free, if no poping or somethine else comes out of Pod then Return production to Crawler)

                    Bolean Bay - New Production Probe Defence, move the new crawler east and move the crawler that is their south, have both crawl minerals.

                    Aurora - New Production, Unarmored Cruiser Transport

                    Mythical Matrix - Hurry Scout Patrol (full)

                    Formers

                    (74,66) move to mine and assist
                    (70,56) If we get a deal for Eco Eng worked out then move to (71,59), if not then either (68,58) farm and solar or if BioGenetics will be avalible soon (69,61) and farm.

                    Military Movments

                    Move transport to (68,76) (NUT bonus north of Bolean Bay) load 2 Probe Defence, 1 marine and 1 Amphibus Rover.

                    Love Boat - move to ware Cruiser is now (trying to peak at as much of the water to the west as possible)

                    Cruiser scout Alexandria and return to fungus.


                    Or if Pod is Poped, use Impact Cruiser to Pop and Love Boat to attack any IOD that my emerge and scout with Cruiser as above. If swept away - Return to withing Alexandria area, but just out of sight. If Duplicate Cruiser, move duplicate south to within striking distance of Casablanca and Alexandria.
                    Companions the creator seeks, not corpses, not herds and believers. Fellow creators, the creator seeks - those who write new values on new tablets. Companions the creator seeks, and fellow harvesters; for everything about him is ripe for the harvest. - Thus spoke Zarathustra, Fredrick Nietzsche

                    Comment


                    • Zetaris, Portal, BB, Aur, Love Boat, transport and Alpha Pi - I agree with you.
                      There are a few other points I'd like to discuss with you:

                      Logic Loop - Crawler
                      I'm heavily in favour of crawlers, but will 1 impact rover, 2 impact marines and 1 plasma garrison suffice as land forces to conquer PEACE?

                      Mythical Matrix - Hurry Scout Patrol (full)
                      Won't that scout patrol be finished anyway in MY 2150, no matter of we hurry it now or not? Next year 6 of the 8 required minerals will be accumulated, and MM is producing 2 per year.

                      (74,66) move to mine and assist
                      Won't it be more efficient to build the road first?
                      If I understand correctly:
                      MY 2149: first former moves to mineral square; all movement points (MPs) are spent
                      MY 2150: first former starts helping to construct mine, second former finished road on (74.66)
                      MY 2151: second former moves to mineral square along the new road and also helps with mine.

                      But if we build the road first:
                      MY 2149: both formers build and finish the road on (74.66)
                      MY 2150: both formers only use 1/3 of their (MPs) to move to the mineral square and can already start on the mine in the same turn.

                      (70,56) If we get a deal for Eco Eng worked out then move to (71,59), if not then either (68,58) farm and solar or if BioGenetics will be avalible soon (69,61) and farm.
                      What would you build on (71.59)? As to building a farm on (68.56?), I guess that will be our eternal nut-min conflict. But here there is the extra circumstance that Pi Square will grow to size 5 in 10 turns, while we don't have drone facilities to control the new drone. How about we therefore plant a forest on (69.57) and even move the Pi Square 2-1-2 worker on (69.61) to there to slow down growth?
                      Contraria sunt Complementa. -- Niels Bohr
                      Mods: SMAniaC (SMAC) & Planetfall (Civ4)

                      Comment


                      • Agree with Mythical Matrix and road construction. That would indeed be better.

                        If we want to keep War Production up for a bit longer in Logic Loop then lets build an armored Impact Marine their instead, LL should be able to finish that before the next Transport leaves and it will prove very versitile. Crawler can be made after the war is wrapped up.

                        I think we should let Pi Grow. We realy need growth and the extra worker will be handy. We can probly get another military unit out of the Base before we need to switch to a Hologram Theather. As for the surrounding terraforming I planed an Echlon Mirron on the (68,56) and solars on the surounding lower elevations. As we now know that their wont be any Eco Eng in the near future I propose we put a farm and solar on (66,56) this will provide 2/1/1 and eventualy 4/1/2 when Condensors and Echlons are built nearby.
                        Companions the creator seeks, not corpses, not herds and believers. Fellow creators, the creator seeks - those who write new values on new tablets. Companions the creator seeks, and fellow harvesters; for everything about him is ripe for the harvest. - Thus spoke Zarathustra, Fredrick Nietzsche

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]
                          If we want to keep War Production up for a bit longer in Logic Loop then lets build an armored Impact Marine their instead, LL should be able to finish that before the next Transport leaves and it will prove very versitile. Crawler can be made after the war is wrapped up.
                          Personally I don't really see the point of a 4~-2-1, certainly not since we have plasma armour. Would you use that unit for attack? Then why not build a 4~-1-1? Would you use that unit for defence? Then why not build a 1-3-1?

                          I think we should let Pi Grow. We realy need growth and the extra worker will be handy. We can probly get another military unit out of the Base before we need to switch to a Hologram Theather. As for the surrounding terraforming I planed an Echlon Mirron on the (68,56) and solars on the surounding lower elevations. As we now know that their wont be any Eco Eng in the near future I propose we put a farm and solar on (66,56) this will provide 2/1/1 and eventualy 4/1/2 when Condensors and Echlons are built nearby.
                          I guess you already know my aversion to farm & solar collectors. I think we should have a thorough longterm discussion and democratic poll about it, as our terraform decisions now influence our terraform strategy later. Personally I support a heavy forestation-boreholes plan a bit like Blake proposes here, or as a second choice Drogue's plan, which IIRC was in the long term building lots of boreholes and between them farms & condensers to harvest nutrients. We don't need solar collectors or echelon mirrors in such strategies.

                          Therefore I heavily support planting forests over solar collectors. Though I personally still consider it a time-consuming and thus not so good terraforming choice to build farms & solar collectors on 1->2000 metres while we have so many others things that need to be done with our few formers, they at least produce more than forests on that height. But below 1000 metres I consider solar collectors just a waste of precious former time. Forests produce 1-2-1. Farm & solar collectors 2-1-1. Personally, unless the base nearby has little nutrients, I consider one mineral more valuable than one nutrient, making a forest a better choice. But even if you consider the two equally valuable, a forest is still by far a better choice, because you can plant forest on two-and-a-half squares in the same former time that it takes to build farm & solar collector on only one tile.
                          The argument that forests require much less former time is also my counterargument against your argument that eventually in a far future soil enriched condensered solar collected and echelon mirrored terrain will be more productive than forests with tree farm and hybrid forest. To support that argument I'd like to refer to Ogie's excellent terraforming article in CGN's SMAC Academy. There his numbers prove that a forest heavy approach produces about 33% less energy than a pure condenser-borehole or echelon mirror-heavy approach, but also that it produces about ~25% more minerals and above all *~80%* less terraforming time.

                          Ogie concludes like this:

                          Conclusions - Each style has its benefits and weaknesses. For example one can see the speed of the forestation approach is a significant strength and by the time the game roles around to the hybrid forest time period chances are your looking to expand via acquisition verses internal building. So this is a great means to get up and running quickly with an eye to conquering in the mid game.

                          If you wish to be a pure builder then you probably are looking more to the advanced t-forming option despite its heavy t-forming requirements it is doable and allows a tremendous late game advantage (best of all options for the late game). But chances are as a consequence of this approach you’ll be focussed internally and tend to neglect the outside world.
                          Many people have said that we are moving to a warmonger direction in this game, and that this game will probably or hopefully never last to the end-game, so these opinions support using the heavy forest (combined with boreholes à la Blake's suggestion) approach over a condenser or echelon mirror-heavy approach as our terraform strategy. What do you think?
                          Contraria sunt Complementa. -- Niels Bohr
                          Mods: SMAniaC (SMAC) & Planetfall (Civ4)

                          Comment


                          • Conserning the 4~2-1 Marines.

                            If we only build 1 unit in LL before the next transport sails then the armored Marines will be the best single unit we can reasonably produce in that time. Its armor would alow it to risist virtualy anything PEACE can throw at it even after they prototype lasers, our unarmored Marines make poor defenders as do our Cruisers. I figure we might as well play it safe and make the investment of 1 extra mineral row and getting a unit that can serve double duty. Especialy if its the only unit LL will contribute to the next transport.

                            We could on the other hand make Impact Marines like we have been making and just have that additional turn for making a crawler or Base improvment. We could also make 2 units that are 2 rows in cost if we spent some credits to hurry each they can make the transport (I am assuming they and the transport move in 2152. The transport should need a 32 credit hurry to do this, any sooner wouldn't be worth it IMHO). Keep in mind though that we already have a Plasma Garrison, a Probe Team to be built in Bolean, and a Probe team that will return to us after Infiltrating PEACE that will want to ride in this next transport.

                            If you feel you can prosicute the war fine with unarmored Marines, then I will defere to your judgment on this one Manic as I am not a military function.


                            With Regards to terraforming, I have started a Poll as you sugjested. The turn is aproatching fast though and I doupt we will have much time to get this worked out (unless the University blows the time limit AGAIN!).
                            Companions the creator seeks, not corpses, not herds and believers. Fellow creators, the creator seeks - those who write new values on new tablets. Companions the creator seeks, and fellow harvesters; for everything about him is ripe for the harvest. - Thus spoke Zarathustra, Fredrick Nietzsche

                            Comment


                            • Internal Affairs 2150 (first draft)

                              Apolyton Prime - New production Impact Marines 4~1-1

                              Binary Bastion - Hurry 6 Credits

                              Zetaris - New production Recycling Tanks. Any new navel unit started in Zetaris will likly not be able to reach PEACe territory untill 2156-57 atwhich point the war should be mostly wrapped up, or in a stage when infantry is more desirable to over their last ditch defences on land bases in the extream West of their territory. If additonal war production is desired I would recomend Marines or a Transport followed by the Tanks.

                              Pi - Hurry 18 Credits, move scout patrol to Portal, move new scout patrol into Portal but do not Re-Home

                              Bolean Bay - March crawlers southward to (71,81) and (70,80) eventualy they should both be in the area out of base radius so workers or new crawlers can quickly access the more northern forests.

                              Move Colony Pod and Scout North

                              Move the 2 formers on the the Zetaris mineral Bonus and assist Mine building.
                              Companions the creator seeks, not corpses, not herds and believers. Fellow creators, the creator seeks - those who write new values on new tablets. Companions the creator seeks, and fellow harvesters; for everything about him is ripe for the harvest. - Thus spoke Zarathustra, Fredrick Nietzsche

                              Comment


                              • Looks good Impaler.

                                I think tho that we should hurry Pi more. We need that ship
                                Que l’Univers n’est qu’un défaut dans la pureté de Non-être.

                                - Paul Valery

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