PEACE diplomatic exchanges

[Maniac]

*bump*

I guess I'll bump this dragon of a thread.

Here is the PM sent to me by FlameFlash. For the reader's ease I've included a copy of the eight points sent to the Hive:

---

RE: PEACE talks
It is quite all right (as far as not getting the message out to me until yesterday) though be advised the Sundays I'm usually the quietest due to preparations for the rest of the week.

While I'm not sure in regards to the sphere of influence issue yet (a graphical representation would help us much more than coordinates if that is possible).

On 1: That does seem to be the best plan, and arrangements are being made to see that to fruition. We do hope that the recently... purchased colony pod will be moved back to your home territory with that being the case.

On 2: This will take more time, we shall continue currently to act in a non-hostile way and begin using Crossbone way as a second prep-point for Angel-territory colonization however I will need time to discuss if disbandment or simply allowing CPU to take the base would be the best.

On 3: A map would really be helpful here, please be advised it may be difficulty during the transition period between old and new PEACE to keep it fully demilitarized however.

On 4: Our thanks, though I take it that island's ownership is currently in question then? It was PEACE's hope to have a base there for obvious reasons (Hive umbrella).

On 5: Agreed, simply refer to what I wrote on re: 3.

On 6: This may prove to be difficult unless full map disclosers all around is enacted. As PEACE attempts to revitalize itself it would be rather difficult and unorthodox to gain authorization on every coordinate we may wish to establish a base. Likewise, the Angels may prove overly hostile and require being extinguished if PEACE is to retain Conshelf 57.

On 7: That will unfortunately need to be discussed with the Hive as we have very little pull, though with CPU's willingness for peace now they should be more willing.

On 8: I would simply advice CPU to propose a council resolution in which such a mandate be created.

I have already brought all of the provisions to my faction, and my apologies on being noncommittal, we will discuss it with due haste.

---

1> We have the ability to eliminate PEACE. But we are willing to allow PEACE to survive, as long as they aren't in our immediate vicinity. Our security concept can't allow a hostile faction remaining in our immediate vicinity. I guess the Hive destroying all Angel defences in Conshelf 57 and the remaining PEACE ship taking that base is the best possibility.

2> Crossbone Way comes under CPU control or is deconstructed voluntarily by PEACE.
Just like you can't tolerate a CPU base on that island near the Hive mainland, we can't tolerate a PEACE base in the middle of our sphere of influence.

3> CPU, Hive and PEACE should agree to the sphere of influence I proposed in the Council thread:
quote:
(32.46), (34.40), (36.38), (42.38), (43.37) and the two islands between those coordinates become a demilitarized zone.
Everything northwest of that is Hive/PEACE territory, and everything southeast of that is CPU territory.
Any unit of any faction which trespasses the DMZ or enters the territory of the other faction, is considered in violation of the treaty and may be destroyed.


4> We will retreat that colony pod from the DMZ island mentioned above as soon as possible, and not found a base there.

5> Hive and PEACE should withdraw their units as soon as possible from our sphere of influence as described under point 3.

6> No new CPU/Hive/PEACE bases can be founded within 16 squares of an existing CPU/Hive/PEACE base. Nor can any Angel base be captured by CPU, Hive or PEACE (besides one base to let PEACE survive). This is to keep a buffer faction between us.

7> The Hive should show signs to be more willing again to cooperate with CPU, meaning for example a re-signing of our pact (the best way to ensure no one has hostile intentions towards each other) or a trade of technologies. That way we have a reason not to give in to the requests of the Angels to declare war on you.

8> If PEACE survives, the main advantage you get is a free vote in the Planetary Council. We would like assurances you won't abuse that. Therefore we propose a CPU veto right on all Council motions except all the official in-game ones. This is to prevent you can propose any motion in the out-of-game Council you want, and CPU being outvoted 3 to 2 every time. I would propose a similar veto right for the Hive and Drones to make things equal.

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We haven't received anything official yet from the Hive though. Hopefully this isn't just a trick to buy them time to take over Conshelf 57 control, as HongHu seems to want war with us no matter what we agree about PEACE.

[Drogue]

Looks good. They're talking and the talks seem to be going well. Will poll on what we can offer, and what we wish to do though.

[Maniac]

A follow-up mail from FlameFlash. I like much less what he's suggesting now... Destruction of Calico Island, and them being allowed to build a second base on Yardarm Island:

PEACE talks

Can't help it... I like the name, it's stuck...

Anyway, it's looking like the demilitarized zone is being favorably discussed on our end (can't say Hive or others will accept it, however.)

There is an issue, and further difficulty with the 16 tiles of separation as the way to make this process go the fastest would require not only a disbanding of crossbone way but also of Calico Island so that Fossil Field Ridge can be settled as per Pirate special abilities.

Likewise, we hope that the straight between Bone and Yardarm Islands can be added to the DMZ simply as that would otherwise allow an easy in/out for agressive units.

Until Crossbone Way is disbanded, however, we do ask permission to retrieve with transports not only the crawlers that would otherwise be stranded in your territory but everything that is still with Crossbone Way... this means we will need at least time enough for three trips from a transport ship.

We will, of course, rearrange as much as possible, workers on the next round to halt further groth at Crossbone.

There may, however, be a need to simply create a coastal base farther north to facilitate our moving out completly.

This is simply a message to let you know about some of the thoughts bouncing around while none of the comments are overly official as we're still in planning stages/opening negotiations.

FF

[DeathByTheSword]

[GeoModder]

Lucky I found this thread again.

Please, next time something like this happens, post a warning in the previous thread (in this case the 'Hive call to ceasefire') where the follow up messages will be posted.

As for their reply:

I suggest the following procedure in cooperation with the Hive.

- Hive builds a transport cruiser, sends it to us and transfers control to us (this shows their commitment, and is our replacement transport)

- We land the Impaler Task Force near Crossbone Way, are allowed to walk in, thus 'conquer' the base (so this must grow two 2 pop). A peace treaty is signed on that point. They then transfer the remaining PEACE units to our control.

- We bring the transport cruiser in Atlantis to the proposed DMZ, take that cp there on board, bring the two units next to Conshelf 57 (by then taken over by the Pirates), and transfer to PEACE.

- Then both flotillas converge on a agreed location 'somewhere in the north' to found a PEACE base. We transfer then all the PEACE units they transfered to us back to PEACE, and go our way.
Whether the transport we transfered to PEACE is transfered from the pirates to the Hive is not our concern. That is something between them, we already have it back when Hive transfers their transport cruiser to our control.

Off course their is some overlap so that everything goes the smoothest. While 'Impaler' task force takes Crossbone when it is 2 pop large, our atlantis transport moves already to Conshelf 57, and the Hive simultaneously sends their (no doubt) very fast produced transport near Atlantis. Off course, since Hive is the first player of a given turn, they have to transfer first.

I think this procedure is the quickest way to switch everything to the right place, builds up some trust among the involved factions (we all transfer control of unit(s) along the way), and just might be the first time in Apolyton History that such a procedure could be pulled off.

As for territory: I think we need at least 2 bases on Yard .... Long island on the SW corner, and somewhere on the eastern coast. That is so we can construct a line of sensor arrays on the NW-W coast to check for 'intrusions' (the whole island falls then under our territorial claim, but we don't 'abuse' it for colonisation). The straits from Yard towards Angel territory can be checked by our -and their ships.

Comments?

[Drogue]

I'd be firm with them. IMHO, we are the ones who are in control. We do not want to disband Calico Island. The 16 spaces, DMZ, etc applies to us all. If that means they don't have the fossil fuel ridge, then bad luck them.

However I'm still in favour of wiping them out.

[Illuminatus]

Originally posted by Drogue

However I'm still in favour of wiping them out.

Most of us are. Wasn`t the plan to stall the negotiations until we can wipe out their last base?

[Maniac]

GeoModder: Would PEACE agree with turning their units over to our control? Also this means we would have to pay their unit support for quite a few turns.
Another possibility is that we capture Crossbone Way, and that PEACE then transfers all their units on Yardlong Island over to our control for a price of 2 credits for each mineral the unit is worth. That way we don't need to waste support minerals to ship their units to PEACE territory, and PEACE won't need to waste time and minerals either while they ship their units out. Instead they'd get credits which they can use to invest immediately in their new empire. Anyway, let's include a few proposals in a PM to FlameFlash and see what they think of it.

Drogue:

The 16 spaces, DMZ, etc applies to us all. If that means they don't have the fossil fuel ridge, then bad luck them.

I had a look at the map. If we are persistent in a 16 squares no-base-building zone, then PEACE would only be able to build bases in a small zone in the far north of the map. So if it will look like we won't be able to destroy PEACE without taking heavy losses and thus will need to come to a real agreement, how about we change our proposal of 16 spaces between CPU/Hive/PEACE bases to:

• 14 or 16 squares between CPU and Hive bases
• 10 squares between CPU and PEACE bases
• No Hive (air) units may be stationed in PEACE bases or territory

[Maniac]

What do you guys think about this borders proposal? SE of the red line is CPU territory, NW of the red line is PEACE territory. The area indicated with purple would be a DMZ.



On the next screenshot PEACE territory would be the area north of the two red lines. SW of the red lines would be CPU territory. West of the red lines would be Hive-PEACE territory, but we would ask not to build any more bases there. Purple would again be DMZ.



These borders give PEACE a decent territory around the Sargasso Sea, with lots of sea shelfs and quite a few bonus resources. Good enough to rebuild a medium sized empire if they want.
Can I send this proposal to PEACE?

Meanwhile, to let PEACE know we're discussing it, I've sent this PM to FlameFlash:

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Hi FlameFlash,

Discussion has started rolling on your latest proposal. Nothing is definite yet, but here are already a few first thoughts and questions:

On 3: A map would really be helpful here

I've made one, and if it gets approval of the Collective, I'll send it to you.

There is an issue, and further difficulty with the 16 tiles of separation as the way to make this process go the fastest would require not only a disbanding of crossbone way but also of Calico Island so that Fossil Field Ridge can be settled as per Pirate special abilities.

If possible we wouldn't prefer a disbanding of Calico Island. I've had a further look at the map though, and with a 16 square seperation you wouldn't be able to found a base about anywhere. Therefore I've proposed to the Collective a decrease to about 10 squares of the no-base-zone between CPU and PEACE bases, so that Calico could remain in existence. I'll let you know how the discussions continue.
Btw, even if Calico would be disbanded, there would still be other bases close to the Fossil Field Ridge, so I don't know if you would feel comfortable there.
I have a question though. Why do you consider the Fossil Field Ridge important? It's all located on -1000m ocean, so you will only be able to terraform it after you get AdvEcoEng. And even then those tiles would only be as productive as normal sea shelf squares.

Until Crossbone Way is disbanded, however, we do ask permission to retrieve with transports not only the crawlers that would otherwise be stranded in your territory but everything that is still with Crossbone Way... this means we will need at least time enough for three trips from a transport ship.

That seems ok to me, though I would ask then if we could agree on some transport route that would not bring your transport too close to CPU bases.
I'd like to inform you though that there are a few alternative proposals flowing within CPU.
For example PEACE transferring control of the units on Yardlong Island to CPU control, and we then shipping them to you with a cruiser transport. That would probably go faster. (This is a very short summary of the proposal - I can elaborate if you want.)
Or for example after a CPU takeover of Crossbone Way PEACE transferring control of all units to CPU, and we compensating you with a sum of energy credits under the exchange price of 2 credits for each mineral the unit is worth. Then you'd get an instant sum of cash to use to boost a new PEACE, without needing to ship all your remaining units for several years over long distances, having to keep paying their support costs all the time.
Anyway, I'll let you know more about possible alternative and more concrete proposals as discussions continue.

There may, however, be a need to simply create a coastal base farther north to facilitate our moving out completly.

Could I ask why? Would it be possible instead to bring a transport to Longyard Island, and load the units that are waiting on the coast on the transport, without a new base for the transport to dock? I assume other CPUers would want any new base on Yardlong Island to be disbanded eventually too, so that would be a waste for you of a good CP.

Greetings,

Mani Alpha-3
Representative for CPU

[Maniac]

From FlameFlash: RE: PEACE negotiations

Many thanks on the update Mani Alpha-3

I've made one, and if it gets approval of the Collective and Central Processing Unit, I'll send it to you.

We'll await approval with open arms... may I suggest using PUT maps if there is too much worry about CyCon sector of CPU being revealed? I'm more interested in seeing exactly what territory CPU is wanting as a DMZ as opposed to seeing anything you have under your casings.

There is an issue, and further difficulty with the 16 tiles of separation as the way to make this process go the fastest would require not only a disbanding of crossbone way but also of Calico Island so that Fossil Field Ridge can be settled as per Pirate special abilities.

If possible we wouldn't prefer a disbanding of Calico Island. I've had a further look at the map though, and with a 16 square seperation you wouldn't be able to found a base about anywhere. Therefore I've proposed to the Collective a decrease to about 10 squares of the no-base-zone between CPU and PEACE bases, so that you have more room to expand. I'll let you know how the discussions continue.

10 seems much more reasonable and viable, though the rest of the cap'ns will have to make comment on it as well before anything is actually confirmed, just as you'll have to await discussions on your end.

Btw, even if Calico would be disbanded, there would still be other bases close to the Fossil Field Ridge, so I don't know if you would feel comfortable there.

I cannot speak for all the cap'ns but I have no hostile intentions toward the CPU at this juncture. PEACE will certainly benefit from peace more than war at this point, as should be obvious.

We also are hoping that these negotiations will reach a positive outcome for our two sectors (what is the CyCon designation within CPU?) and that being distant neighbors won't be much of a problem.

I have a question though. Why do you consider the Fossil Field Ridge important? It's all located on -1000m ocean, so you will only be able to terraform it after you get AdvEcoEng. And even then those tiles would only be as productive as normal sea shelf squares.

The pirate special I think plays a role in the push to have a sea base there, along with the fact that we would really like to return to the sea and it would be the easiest and fastest location for such a base.

Until Crossbone Way is disbanded, however, we do ask permission to retrieve with transports not only the crawlers that would otherwise be stranded in your territory but everything that is still with Crossbone Way... this means we will need at least time enough for three trips from a transport ship.

That seems ok to me, though I would ask then if we could agree on some transport route that would not bring your transport too close to CPU bases.

We'll certainly gladly alert CPU of when a transport begins entering the area so that you may set up bouy locators to guide our transport safely to the crawlers.

I'd like to inform you though of a few alternative proposals flowing within CPU.
For example PEACE transferring control of the units on Yardlong Island to CPU control, and we then shipping them to you with a cruiser transport. That would probably go faster. (This is a very short summary of the proposal - I can elaborate if you want.)
Or for example after a CPU takeover of Crossbone Way PEACE transferring control of all units to CPU, and we compensating you with a sum of energy credits under the exchange price of 2 credits for each mineral the unit is worth. Then you'd get an instant sum of cash to use to boost a new PEACE, without needing to ship all your remaining units for several years over long distances, having to keep paying their support costs all the time.
Anyway, I'll let you know more about possible alternative and more concrete proposals as discussions continue.

Both the PoE offer and the offered assistance in transporting the items would be appreciated but given the recent troubles between us and the fact that our parrots and pirate egos may not allow it we'll have to discuss that one further before I can go into any definate yes/no/maybe on the issue.

There may, however, be a need to simply create a coastal base farther north to facilitate our moving out completly.

Could I ask why? Would it be possible instead to bring a transport to Longyard Island, and load the units that are waiting on the coast on the transport, without a new base for the transport to dock? I assume other CPUers would want any new base on Yardlong Island to be disbanded eventually too, so that would be a waste for you of a good CP.

The thought among the Cap'ns is that it would get us into the sea that much faster, through which we could then get off of yardarm and out of crossbone way, along with the needed transport ships to carry ourselves completly out of the DMZ territory as quickly as possible. From my understanding of the discussion thus far Crossbone would effectively be moved temporarily to allow access to the sea. I'll have to confirm what the plan actually entails if that is a route CPU and PEACE settle upon for getting out of the DMZ.

[GeoModder]

About the DMZ proposal, Maniac.

I prefer to bring the DMZ south to the straits, between Yardlong and bones island. Easier to controll. also, and as long as this doesn't breach the 14-16 tiles distance between us and Hive, I like to have allowance to found a base on the south of Bones Island as well for the construction of a sensor network.

As for their request at another base on Yardlong island, their is no need for them to have one. They can simply quickbuild a colony pod in Crossbone Way so the base is dismantled, and move it to the northern coast. Their remaining rovers can do the same quicker, thus those can be transported in a first wave, the slower unit(s) can then be transported in a second wave. End of discussion on this part for me.

With the DMZ going south a bit, PEACE can have a base on the NW side of the fossil field ridge, and we have then better use of a sensor network on Yard island, and a safe distance is maintained between us.

Any response on the Hives behalf so far?

[Maniac]

How about sending this message to FlameFlash:

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Hi FlameFlash,

Here are some comments and questions about your previous PM.

First, it seems like the Central Processing Unit is comfortable with you building a base around the Fossil Field Ridge. In return for this, we would want to ask then though if you would be willing to agree with a clause that no Hive or Drone air units can be stationed in PEACE bases or territory. This is also in your benefit as it would significantly decrease the odds the new PEACE territories would become the battlefield of another war in case the Hive would decide to declare war on us in the future.

Second, as I expected the CPU really doesn't like the idea of PEACE building another base on Yardlong Island after Crossbone Way would be deconstructed. Could I therefore please request if it would be possible to execute a decolonization of Yardlong Island without building another base?

Third, even if instead of turning over control of the units on Yardlong Island for a sum of energy credits, you would opt for a decolonization by sending a transport, could you please still consider a control transfer of the crawler on (55.61) in exchange for a sum of credits? That crawler is located on a very fertile tile and of course we would want to harvest that square ourselves as soon as possible. Since that crawler is located very deep in the Consciousness-Planet University sphere of influence, it would take ages to ship that crawler away yourself.

Friendly greetings,

Mani Alpha-3

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Any response on the Hives behalf so far?

Nope. Which of course decreases my willingness to live by any agreement we sign with PEACE. Btw, you once made a plan to possibly attack that last PEACE schooner. Where did you post that again?

Anyway, taking into account your comments, how about this new border proposal below? I would no longer mention "no-base-zones" or DMZs, but simply call it a border above which PEACE can do whatever it wants, and we can do whatever we want below it. Then we can build bases on South-Bones Island or Yardlong Island if you want, without needing to ask permission.
Also the straight red line at the top of the second picture wouldn't indicate that we claim all the land and sea beneath it as our territory, but simply that we'd ask PEACE not to found any bases there, so that the Hive doesn't get free air bases. Whether there comes a DMZ there, would be up to Hive-CPU bilateral agreements, if they're interested of course...





Btw, GeoModder, wouldn't you want to do the diplomacy between CPU and PEACE?

[GeoModder]

Damn those log out problems

Ok, in short:

Maniac, ok that I from next week on play the diplomat.

The plan for attacking the PEACE schooner will be posted in the MAF thread soon, but I think I have put it first in ceasefire thread or Hive diplo thread.

No DMZ with PEACE is only possible when no Hive/Drone air units are allowed in their future territory.

Map more or less ok, but needs to be further looked upon towards PUT territory. For that crawler issue, we can transfer a crawler as well when peace comes with PEACE, if ec's are not ok with them.

Important: are you sure that a majority of our members is ok with all this? Last I checked Drogue and Obstructor still seemed against PEACE survival. A new poll perhaps?

[Maniac]

Originally posted by GeoModder
Important: are you sure that a majority of our members is ok with all this? Last I checked Drogue and Obstructor still seemed against PEACE survival. A new poll perhaps?

Is fine by me. The problem for me though is that my opinion whether or not to eliminate PEACE depends on how many units it would cost us. And it's difficult to know that at the moment.

[GeoModder]

Not that difficult. 2 cruisers would be within Hive air umbrella I think, thus lost. O yes, that 'prisoner' cp would be lost as well.

But I'll check, and prepare some MAF orders for CC.