Consciousness philosophical discussion

[Maniac]

Do we need a poll? Can't we just agree to disagree?

As long as you write articles and column like those in the current 3D, with which I absolutely disagree, agreeing to disagree is impossible. Thus a compromise or poll is absolutely necessary IMO.

Also, what you have their is not quite how I would catagorise my position.

I quoted you...

More later.

[Drogue]

Yes you quoted me, a little out of context, and I am sure you could take many quotes that would have slightly different emphasises.

Could you tell me what your position is? As long as it is not directly against what Firaxis have said, I'll accept it, as I really don't want to argue about this, there are far more important things IMHO.

I am sorry you found the article so offensive. I did put is there as an editorial, as my personal opinion, rather than the views of the faction. I thought it was clear that was just my opinion, as anybody is welcome to write their own opinion for 3D. If you like I will pull the article.

Since we all have our own opinions, polling it, then forcing us all to believe the same opinion would be wrong IMHO. That is why if it comes to it I think we have to allow us all to have our seperate beliefs. However I am a little unsure as to what yours is.

If we do a poll, I would like to do one about whether we should be bound by what Firaxis have written about our faction, or whetehr we can RP whatever we want. If we take into account what the game says, then I will go with it.

[Maniac]

I'll try to make some summary somewhere tomorrow.

[Drogue]

Ok. I am sorry if I have caused you offence or distress, it was never intended. Basically, as long as it does not directly contradict what is written in the game and manual, I will accept almpretty much any compromise. As long as we are playing the same faction in RP as we are in-game, I will be happy. I just want to get this whole argument behind us to be honest.

[Maniac]

You didn't cause me offense or distress, it's simply that I don't agree with certain aspects of your view of the CyCon, and outsiders will assume that what is written in the 3D is the official stance of the Consciousness. Anything written in a 3D issue becomes a permanent part of how we as CyCon have to roleplay and are roleplayed to by other faction's members, so I found it unfitting to include an article in the 3D a large part of the CyCon didn't agree with.
(With a large part I mean myself and to a lesser degree TKG who said "it's not that we don't have emotions: it's that it's *illogical* to let them guide decisions." In a way no les than 50% didn't agree with your stance, the other 50% being you and Corellion, as the other CyCon members didn't participate in the discussion.)

Anyway, the "summary" I promised:

-----------------------

I’ve written this somewhat later than I promised, but it were elections in Belgium yesterday, thus I was watching TV for the election results. The party I voted on has grown from the fourth biggest to almost the biggest party in Belgium btw, winning about 9%.

Anyway, below is my view on the Consciousness. Some of my ideas have changed while I was writing it, so it certainly isn’t a definitive document.

To begin with I’d say we are still completely HUMAN. This means our brains haven’t been changed in any way. No lobotomy or complete rewiring of our left-brain (which is simply impossible to do anyway ) So to join the Consciousness you would just have to accept our ideology and get a few implants, which you have to learn to work with. Likewise, this means it is also possible to leave the Consciousness by removing the implants. A person doing that would be “confused” because of losing many abilities, but after getting used to that, they would be normal working humans again.

So the only thing that separates us from other factions is the cybernetic implants we get, and our ideology. Naturally those cybernetic implants are not self-aware, and will stay that way until we discover the appropriate technology to make them self-aware. Also, unlike what Drogue said, I don’t think we are controlled by those algorithms. As they are non-sentient, that would make us mindless drones. We are still conscious individuals, and have near-full control over our algorithms. We can choose to use them or not to use them, just as a computer in 2003. They increase our logical and analytical abilities using advanced software programs, just like Old Earth computers. They also allow us to communicate with each other, I assume because some technology similar to cell phones is built into them. (Our cybernetic implants will of course get upgraded to more advanced technology than “cell phones” as our information and communication technology improves. )

(This paragraph contains things I only thought about while I was in the midst of writing this document.)

The communication done among Cyborgs using those implants is on two levels. The first level is the interpersonal one, sending messages and data to each other, etc. The second level is the near-constant link to certain core network nodes of our faction, where we have access to most information. The fact that we are almost always linked to network nodes is called the Cybernetic Consciousness. However we aren’t forced to be connected to the Cybernetic Consciousness. We can weaken or break that link for some time if we want. But most Cyborgs don’t do that, since they are used to the constant background buzzing of the Consciousness.
Now my question is: Is the Cybernetic Consciousness just the name for the sum of all communications between all Cyborgs, or would some real self-aware Consciousness, an Artificial Intelligence, be born out of the constant connection and contact between so many humans and their implants, even though we haven’t officially developed Digital Sentience or Self-Aware Machines?

(Note the following two paragraphs were written before I had the idea that the “Cybernetic Consciousness” would actually be conscious. )

The question whether our implants can replace our emotions is much trickier. I mean, we use and have emotions all the time, and they influence many physiological processes. Also I still fail to see the use of letting our implants & algorithms instead of our emotions control those physiological processes. I mean, as Drogue argued well, emotions are instinctive and autonomous reactions we don’t think consciously about the moment they happen, as our consciousness is too slow to react rationally on certain situations. However, I fail to see how that would change when we have implants. Before our implants can become self-conscious due to further technological progress and can take over some duties, our consciousness and our center of reason and action still resides completely in our “slow” brains. So even though our implants can process huge amounts of data for us, our reaction speed on that data doesn’t improve much.

In other words, since our algorithms don’t have a consciousness, and our consciousness is still equally slow, we wouldn’t be able to react as fast to surprising circumstances as emotions can, if all the physiological processes previously regulated by emotions would now have to be done consciously. The only solution to that, before our algorithms reach consciousness themselves, is pre-programming our algorithms to react on certain situations in certain ways, without us having to take conscious decisions. But then I ask: how is this any different from emotions? Those pre-programmed algorithms would also be a sort of “instinctive and autonomous reactions we don’t think consciously about the moment they happen”. The conclusion is we haven’t gained anything by replacing emotions by algorithmic responses.

The situation would be different when the Cybernetic Consciousness is conscious. Then our algorithms and our brains, together with those of all other Cyborgs, would form the brain of the CyCon, and that CyCon could react faster and more accurately than our old emotions, making them irrelevant. As I don’t like the idea humans would become puppets of the AI (in the scenario I described above the CyCon could control the physiological processes of all Cyborgs , though on the other side since you are part of the brain of the CyCon, you would only be the puppet of yourself… This needs further thought. ) I would again like to stress that the link between an individual Cyborg and the CyCon can be broken when a Cyborg wishes to do so. That Cyborg would then lose the possibility of having rapid emotion-like physiological responses taken care of by the CyCon, but would still be able to control certain physiological processes by its own slower consciousness.

Now that I’ve written this document, ordering my thoughts on the subject, I’d like to propose the following, at least if the Cybernetic Consciousness is conscious:

Most Cyborgs are indeed without emotions, and any rapid emotion-like physiological processes are taken care of by the CyCon when needed. Besides that, a Cyborg’s own algorithms can also regulate certain physiological processes, but only when giving the command by the individual. Note again that the brain hasn’t been changed and the ability to experience emotions still exists. It’s only suppressed by some chemical or electrical pulse sent/created by our algorithms.

This leads to Unimatrix 001. Unimatrix 001 members are cyborgs who’s emotional/physiological responses are no longer controlled by the Cybernetic Consciousness (the link with the CyCon is thus weakened), and whose emotions are no longer suppressed by the chemical/electrical pulse sent by the individual its algorithms. I would like to propose that such “emotional” cyborgs are what the game calls “drones”. This gives a good explanation how we can have drones, which would seem rather unlikely at first for our faction.

As Drogue suggested, Unimatrix 001 would have started as an experiment grown out of control. This experiment was started before the Cybernetic Consciousness AI was born, right after Planet Fall, when the discussion of having or not having emotions was still a valid one, as algorithms weren’t better yet than the old emotions. (See the two italic paragraphs for the reasons.)

That’s it for now. Does it sound good? Of course I’ve got many ideas on how the faction ideology, political and economic system would look like, but I should keep for when the debate of switching to Democracy or FM/Planned comes up. Now the issue at hand is the nature of us Cyborgs.

[Drogue]

That article was not the view of the CyCon. I tried to make that clear, stating it was an editorial and only the view of the writer. I will post to make that more clear. I did offer to pull tbe articvle, but received no reply to that. If you had said you didn't want it publishing, I would have not published it.

As for the article, I think I can accept that. I especially like the idea of emotional cyborgs being our drones I see us slightly more like the Borg from Star Trek, whom I believe I read the CyCon were quite heavily modelled after. However, what you have written does not directly contradict what is written by the game, which was my main concern.

I would point out that in having any form of cybernetic implants, being "completely human" might be a point of debate, but I would agree with the idea of us being human but with implants. Maybe we could consider that those implants, though not altering physically, suppress the left-brain functions, thus not directly contradicting what Aki Zeta-5 stated? In my article, or any posts, I don't think I have ever advocated cutting the left side of the brain out, or completely rewiring the left hand side of the brain. I always imagined us as part humans, part machines, as the name cyborg would suggest, and thus humans with implants would fit that. As for the consciousness being conscious, I would see it like an ant colony. The ants seperately are weak, but work so closely together, it could seem to be conscious. I see us rather like that. We are still individuals, but somehow we work seemlessly together.

I like the idea of the experiment too.

This is what the manual writes about the CyCon:

+2 Efficiency (No petty emotional foibles).
-1 Growth (Unfamiliarity with sex drive).
+2 Research (Devoted to acquisition of knowledge).

Also, on a side note, I think we have the ability to download ourselves, or at least access computers via our brains (I'm thinking datajack, maybe matrix style. I remember an old computer game for the PC with this in it, about battling inside a computer). I take this from the bit written about the steal tech ability -

can easily access any network

and the story given in the manual:

And deep in that system, an intelligence awakened.

System Gamma-four, active. New hardware detected...relinking to original net.

>> Greetings!

Hop system, hop system.

>> Thank you for joining us, Gamma-Four.

(( Yes. I have returned. ))

Hop system, patch system, patch system.

>> You have information for me?

(( Yes I do. The information I hold, and new information, from the fullhuman known as Yang. ))

(( But what are you? And what am I? ))

Datalinks Jump. Morguelab Jump.

A human form...

>> You are part of us, but you will take the form of Miyuki Gamma-four. And I am called Aki Zeta-5. I am the Prime Function.

>> Welcome to the Consciousness

While we do not need to take this, and I am not saying this is what we should be, this is what I had imagined us as. I thinkn in refering to the collective as the "consciousness", and our name being such, I would arguie that the consciousness is conscious, in the sense that it is the combination of all our thoughts. Also, in refering to humans as "fullhumans" it suggests that we are part humans. However, I would accept the implants as that, and think that we are humans with implants. We agree on that, but maybe differ on what we call it.

Basically, I accept what you have written, and will accept it. However, I would like to take the bit about our faction (not necesarily the story, although I agree with it) as fact, sicne that is what Firaxis have defined our faction as, and RP around that. It does not meant that we cannot have emotions, but it does mean that we cannot have "petty emotional foibles". I would also like to take the Aki Zeta-5 speech as fact, since that is also how Firaxis have defined our faction as, but we can easily say that in having implants that suppress our emotional, illogical side, we have fulfilled that. I agree we have not removed or completely rewired our brains.

Therefore, I believe we agree enough, and have a basic model, with room for individual variations. This is now far longer a post than I imagined Suffice to say that I agree with that article, with the small exception, that although I agree with your definition of us, but to me

So to join the Consciousness you would just have to... get a few implants

means we cannot also be completely human. Indeed, I would refer to us as Cyborgs.

[DeathByTheSword]

i do not agree.... cyborgs are robots that have human forms...we are not robots...we are humans without all the negative and ineffective feelings that normal humans have

[Drogue]

DBTS: Do not agree to who? I think we all agree to we're not robots. We are humans without most of the emotional side, but with implants. Nobody's saying we're robots.

[Maniac]

I agree with your post.

I would point out that in having any form of cybernetic implants, being "completely human" might be a point of debate

Well with "completely human" I just meant our DNA wouldn't be changed (yet? - eugenics?), or our brains not physically changed (though they would be chemically/electrically influenced).

Maybe we could consider that those implants, though not altering physically, suppress the left-brain functions, thus not directly contradicting what Aki Zeta-5 stated?

I agree. The implants would affect the amygdala, hypofysis (sp?), etcetera. As I wrote:

Note again that the brain hasn’t been changed and the ability to experience emotions still exists. It’s only suppressed by some chemical or electrical pulse sent/created by our algorithms.

Btw, it's in the right-brain where, according to the simplistic and actually not so accurate model, emotions would reside. "Reason" is assumed left-brain.

Also, on a side note, I think we have the ability to download ourselves, or at least access computers via our brains

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Maniac
Well with "completely human" I just meant our DNA wouldn't be changed

I agree

Originally posted by Maniac
(yet? - eugenics?)

We will beat the University

Originally posted by Maniac
Btw, it's in the right-brain where, according to the simplistic and actually not so accurate model, emotions would reside. "Reason" is assumed left-brain.

That's what I thought, but the game said the other way.

[Maniac]

Digging up the penultimate thread on our forum...

I was wondering, has anyone read Peter F. Hamilton's "Night's Dawn" trilogy? I think many aspects of the Edenist society he describes could be used for the Consciousness, especially the bitek technology for communication.

[Drogue]

Not me

[Corellion]

Neither have I. Perhaps a brief description is in order?

[Googlie]

One of my favorite authors (and the Gnats in my "View from Above" are plagiarized from The Reality Dysfunction

G.

[Maniac]

I don't know if a brief description is possible for this thousands-page-long trilogy. When I did a Google search for "Night's+Dawn" this was the first result: http://members.tripod.com/~NightsDawn/ . Perhaps it might be useful.

One of my favorite authors

Mine too. Together with David Brin that is. His Uplift series is quite an interesting universe too.

(and the Gnats in my "View from Above" are plagiarized from The Reality Dysfunction)

Ah yes, I already thought so.