..Re: Pirate/Borg/PUT trade deals of 2127

[johndmuller]

I thought I'd make a separate thread to discuss the various facets of our proposed deals with the PUT and Borg which we hope will get us (and the Borg) to Industrial Auto in just a couple of years.

To review the current situation and proposed deals:

-At the beginning of the turn (our MY2127), we finished researching Progen Psych and began researching Ethical Calc

-During the current turn, Cap;n Hercules acquired Industrial Econ

-We currentlly have Industrial Econ and Planetary Nets and could switch (paying a modest penalty) to Industrial Auto (assuming it was offered), finishing it in 15 or so years.

-At the moment, the Borg are researching Industrial Base, and will finish on their second turn (their MY2129)

-We could give/trade the Borg Industrial Econ and they could then research Industrial Auto as their next tech when they finish Industrial Base. finishing Industrial Auto perhaps a few years sooner than we would (their research is not much better than ours)


---So much for the Straw Men; now for the good plan---

-If we can get Industrial Base from somewhere and give it to the Borg (so they can switch the tech they will finins in a few years) and also give them Industrial Econ (so they will have the necessary PreReq's for Industrial Auto), they will be in a position to research Industrial Auto and get it in just a few years.

-We believe that the PUT has Industrial Base (they have Industrial Econ and did not immediately deny having Industrial Base. We have proposed a trade with the PUT of our Doc:Flex for their Industrial Base.

- (as an aside) The PUT already have Planetary Nets and Industrial Econ (Ironically, I think they were offering it to us for Doc:Mobility) and could therefore be researching Industrial Auto soon, if not already. For some reason I am not privy to, I think that Cap'n Hercules believes that both the Drones and the Hive already have Industrial Auto.

-Roz definitely has Industrial Base, but tradewise she would be interested in acquiring Doc:Flex; salewise, she also has Biogenetics which we lack and might offer to sell us that first/instead; and finally tech-stealwise, our new PartyBoat is 15 (4 turns) away from her only known base and we would still have to get Biogenetics first to avoid stealing that by mistake (our tech thieves must be pretty dumb or pretty drunk).

----------------------------

Realistically, if we are to get to Ind Auto in the 2 or 3 year time frame we are shooting for, out best bet is to trade right now for Industrial Base from the PUT, arranging to get it our next turn (our 2128) and immediately giving it and the Indust Econ to the Borg (their 2129), who will be able to switch techs to (hopefully) Industrial Auto, which they would shortly receive (there is a contingency plan below for them not being offered IndAuto at first).

If we need to deal with the DataTechs instead of the PUT, we shoud probably arrange to get Biogenetics from the Borg, which we could have as early as our next turn (MY2128), and then hope to buy (or trade for Doc:Flex) the Industrial Base Tech from Roz (as that would be the only one of her techs we didn't have, it would remove the doubt as to which tech she would proffer). This plan would probably work, although dealing with the AI is not always dependable.

I'm porposing to basically level with the Borg as to our sources (regretably, due to our pact, they will be able to see for themselves that we have made contact with the PUT and unless they are dumber than our tech thieves, they will be able to figure out on their own what it is that we are organizing). We wouldn't necessarily have to say it out loud, but fessing up that we have human and AI sources for the techs we plan to provide and assuring them that we are not planning to give out the Industrial Auto to anyone else should be sufficient. They do seem to have an emotionally negative regard for the PUT, which could lead them to shy off a bit, but hopefully they will see the big advantage to be gained here if we can pull off this deal.

[johndmuller]

Copies or links to some relevent messages:

Initial message to PUT here.

-Preliminary reply from Gen'l Tacitus of PUT here.

-----------------------------------------

Initial message to CyCon here.

Initial response of Maniac of the CyCon here.

(Cap'n Herc, if you can edit posts, feel free to add a copy of your correspondence with Maniac or anything else in here)

The following message hasn't been posted yet, it is the second reply from Maniac with his probing questions, etc.

Reply2 from Maniac


Tech opportunity
Hello again Cuspidore and Captains,

quote:
(like if you were a Hive agent wanting to ruin opportunities for the CyCon)


That would be something: the CyCon Prime Function a Hive agent!

Anyway , I'm here with the promised questions and a few issues I'm quite confused about :

For instance you say you now have IndEco. But you also have PlaNets, the other prerequisite for IndAut. So didn't you have the option to research IndAut after you finished ProgPsych (probably, at your current research rate, postponing your discovery of IndAut by another two decades in the worst case )? And what tech did you choose then after you researched ProgPsych?

Further I'm wondering where you got IndEco. Are you trading with another AI or human faction? If so, please know that the CyCon are always interested in information about other factions, their commlinks etcetera. And why aren't you sure you can get IndBase? Are their certain things or techs another faction is demanding of you in exchange for IndBase, and which you are not sure you can provide?

I'm however most confused about something in Hercules' mail:

quote:
To insure that we given the best chance of acquiring Ind Base, it may be important that you send over Applied Physics or Biogenetics next turn


How is getting IndBase related with ApplPhys and Biogen? If I understand you correctly, your proposal is as following:
1) This turn MY 2127 you give us IndEcon pre-accepted.
2) Our turn MY 2128 we accept IndEcon and slow down our research, thereby losing a few credits and labs due to inefficiency.
3) Your turn MY 2128 you somehow receive IndBase and give it to us pre-accepted.
4) Our turn MY 2129 we accept IndBase and can hopefully directly choose IndAut. If not, have to we choose a tech we know you have, so you can again give it to us, hopefully allowing us to choose IndAut next time.
5) Once we have IndAut, we give it to you, together with any other tech or payment (which we could give earlier of course) you require for giving us Indbase, IndEcon and a possible third tech (eg ProgPsych) if we couldn't research IndAut right away.

Did I get that right?

Friendly greetings,

Mani Alpha-3

__________________

I plan to more or less answer his questions according to the reasonably open policy I described at the end of the leadoff post in this thread (unless I hear otherwise from you'all real soon) since they will be able to figure out the possibilities for themselves anyway and if we try to hide things, they will probably imagine the worst of our dealings with the PUT.

I don't think that it is really necessary for us to send over IndEcon immediately, as long we do it before they are ready to switch (i,e, when we send IndBase), but it doesn't really matter to me either way if it will make them feel better (it might also increase the trade income one year earlier, although probably only for them, we may already be getting lined up to get the benefits); comments are welcome on that whether or not we care if we give IndEcon to them right away as part of the deal.

[Hercules]

I agree.
re Ind Auto choice for us. we discovered Progenitor Pysch almost as we opened the turn and before I had acquired Ind Econ from Roze.

Re how we acquired Ind Econ. I think we can be open about contact with Roze and about the possibility of buying Ind Base from her provided the other techs ( Bio and poss Applied P) are not offered because we would already have them.

re Applied Physic (I haven't revisited the turn since saving, but I vaguely remember thinking she had it), that ' why I mentioned it.

Be as open as you can be but I think it would be better if they didn't know the PUT were in the picture.

[Hercules]

You will also have received by now Cap'n FF's response which is supportive.

In the worst case where we have to acquire Ind base from Roze by purchase, we should advise CyCon we will have forked out 200 ecs for this transaction.

At this stage all The Borg need to know is we have the possibility of acquiring Ind Base. If they think that is from Roze, fine. The need for us to acquire, say Bio, helps with that persuasion.

Can I ask someone to check if Roze actually does have Applied Physics. I hate re-opening the turn in case something unexpected happens. If she doesn't that makes negotiation simpler.

[Hercules]

re above: Cuspidore BB, I think you mean Doc Mob in some places rather than Doc Flex.

[johndmuller]

I took the liberty of posting in the main Demo Forum turn thread that we might need more time due to being "busy" with "business" in "Miami". How could any one say no to that?

Roz doesn't have Applied Physics, just the Biogenics and Indust Base that we don't. (BTW they are reseaching Doc:Mobility, if she was smart she would trade us for that.)

The Borg can tell that we have met the PUT by looking in their faction profile of us which will show something like us having a truce with the PUT (like we see about them and the Believers). Since they will know that, I figure that they can interpret our actions as showing a deal of some kind with the PUT whether or not we have one, so we might as well fess up to a little deal instead of feeding their suspicions. I am planning to be somewhat vague anyway as it really is our private factional business. The idea is not to make it into a big deal in their minds when we actually aren't doing anything they would worry about. In fact, they might acually appreciate the possibility of the PUT enabling them (the Borgs) to get IndAuto without the PUT getting it themselves.

[Hercules]

The other point to note is that the Borg at least are allowing for an extension to the 24hr play rule. I presume PUT will be agreeable to that. Each will be unaware of course of the others involvement.

Meanwhile the drones and hive will be wondering what's the delay.

I feel I should post something.:" Like normal service will be resumed as soon as possible" most assuming it is my computer problem. I will do that .

[johndmuller]

Cap'n Herc, where do you mean Doc:Mob instead of Doc:Flex? If you are talking about what Roz wants us to trade her, I don't know what she asked for, I thought you said it was Doc:Flex? Wasn't I wondering why you wanted to trade it so soon after we were saying to the Borg that it was sacred? If it was Doc:Mob, then that would be a fine trade for Industrial Auto, if it comes down to that, it's just that it is tough to depend on making a particular deal with the AI, so it would be nicer to do it that way.

We're cross posting like crazy here, so in case you miss it above, I looked in the turn and Roz does not have Applied Physics.

[Hercules]

Got ye, And I notice you beat me to it in the turn track thread.

I wasn't thinking of trading Doc Flex to Roze for anything, but as a
last resort buying Ind base for 100ecs. Her initial opening gambit is
for Doc Flex .When I decline and indicate I have another proposal: that
we would be interested in her research and to name her price, the tech
(hopefully Ind base), is offered for 100ecs. I might get 2 shots at
talking to her before she declines our transmissions.

Nor was I (we) thinking of trading Doc Flex to the PUT for ind Base.

[Hercules]

Oh and to complicate matters Roze is currently researching Doc. Mob. But for all her new age IT knowhow she fails to catch on I could trade that to her.

re the PUT. I think they initially wanted (amongst other things) to trade Doc Flex for Ind Econ (which we hesitated about). We haven't got beyond the treaty stage but my reasoning was that the lower level trade Doc Moc or Progentor Psych for (I presume they have), Ind base, wouldn't cause to much soul searching.

[johndmuller]

2nd Message from BB to CyCon

This one addresses the questions raised by Mainac in his detailed response to our original message.

Dear [Strike]Hive Agent[/strike] Prime Function Mani Alpha-3,

Let me address some of your questions to [strike]the limits of what they will let me say before I would have to walk the plank[/strike] the best of my ability.

It is true that we could also, in theory, research Industrial Auto ourselves, but in addition to the (small, at this point) charge for changing research targets and the possibility of not being offered it as one of the techs despite having the prereq's, it would, as you noted, probably take us 15 years or so to do the research, whereas there appears to be an opportunity to get it in only 3 or 4 years this way. We didn't select it when we finished our research because that happens in the pre-turn phase, before we had acquired the Industrial Econ tech, and so we did not yet have the prereq's for IndAuto.

We purchased the IndEcon from the DataJack and they are also a potential source of the IndBase tech. Since you were asking about the DJ, I can tell you that she is feeling Erraticallly Noncommital at the moment (I fear that her opinion of your Borgships would probably 'not compute'). We have determined that Roze also has IndBase (a ship full of [strike]our spies[/strike] innocent carousers was lost acquiring that information) and we may be able to acquire it from her also.

The reason that Cap'n Hercules mentioned Biogenetics was that Roze may offer us Biogenetics instead of IndBase and that could be precluded if we already had that tech. (When Cap'n Hercules included Applied Physics, it was the xenorum reading that tech into the Carousers' Intelligence report - the Datatechs do not have that tech). As you probably know, Biogenetics is not as useful a tech for us as it is for you in that our sea bases come with Pressure Domes and only our land bases might use Recyc's, so we would not cook up some elaborate ruse merely to get Biogenetics. It may be that Roze considers IndBase her next disposable tech instead of Biogen, but we do not know that to be true, so unless you know better than our 'scientists' (which is a pretty good bet), it would be prudent (as foreign a concept as that is to us) to avoid the situation where we would have to go an extra round (and perhaps another turn) with her to get to the IndBase, not to mention the extra cost.

As to why we are unsure we can get the tech, one simply cannot trust [strike]landlubbers[/strike] that Roz will deal with us at any given moment, let alone a moment of our choice.

Your analysis of the desired sequence of events is fundamentally correct. Conceivably we could take longer than hoped to get the IndBase (FYI stealing it in a reasonable enough time frame does not appear feasible due to the distance to the nearest DJ base that we know about). We are unsure as to for how long you can defer you research, but we assume you can slip it at least 1 year; if it were possible to work it so that you could optionally slip it for an additional year if we were delayed getting IndBase, that would be good. We of course recognize that you would be experiencing the pain of inefficiency and we sympathize with you - ordinarily, we would recommend a visit to the Rope Room astern for a pipe of xenoweed, but that may not be to your liking either.

On the contingency of your not being offered IndAuto the first time you have the Prereq's, I am entirely confident that the second time it would definitely be offered, so once you have the IndBase and IndEcon. as long as you have at least 1 extra turn in hand, it will be a sure thing that you can get IndAuto (unless the xenorum does the tech selection). As yuo might expect, we would prefer that you selected Progen Psych as the alternative tech "bridge", should you not be offered the Ind Auto.

We are hopeful that you will join us in this highly beneficial project, a real watershed event.

Please share your thinking on equitable quid pro quo possibities.

The Cuspidore BrownBeard.

(Paragraph sacrificed to the PM size limit)
I am also told by my advisors that it is not necessary to give you IndEcon immediately, that giving it to you with the IndBase would suffice, so we may not be authorized to provide it in advance, considering its high cost to us, but it seems a small matter anyway, whether it is sent one tujrn or the next, so I am sure that one or the other of us will brush it aside as a trivial concern.

-----------------------------

I had to bite my tongue to omit any mention of the PUT - I still think we should be upfront about our slight contact with them, but until we air it our more among ourselves, I will try to keep quiet about it.

[Hercules]

Good job there Cuspidore, Flubber would be proud of ye. Now lets hope they and the PUT can repond in reasonable time.

[Hercules]

This from Maniac ( part 1)
Hello Cuspidore and Captains (with copies to the 2ndF and EAF),

I thank you for your clear answers to my questions. Everything is now understandable for my algorithms. I understand the logic in wanting Biogenetics. Your latest P(b)ottle-Message hasn't been discussed yet, but there already was a general consensus we would be willing to give Biogenetics if we could both get IndAut that way.
quote:
so we would not cook up some elaborate ruse merely to get Biogenetics.

We weren't worried about that. We are worried though about a further proliferation of that technology. Therefore I have two requests for when I offer you Biogenetics pre-accepted next turn:
1 You won't research the Humane Genome Project. The CyCon have shown an interest in that ourselves.
2 You won't give Biogenetics to any other faction without our consent (or at least not before the HGP is finished).

[Hercules]

From Mani-Aplha3 ( part 2 of above PM)

That's about it actually concerning my remarks. Am I correct to assume this will be the whole deal between us. If everything goes ok?:

Your offers and burdens:IndBase, IndEco, A possible third tech if necessary (ProgPsych?). Following Biogen restrictions

CyCon offers and burdens:Biogen, IndAut, A possible third tech if necessary (ApplPhys?) Suffering inefficiency from delaying research.

I still have to present this list for final consent to the Collective, but very probably (my algorithms tell me probably no less than 95%) it will be accepted.

Greetings, Mani Alpha-3

[Hercules]

Communications between Peace and PUT

Hi there learned Dons and Deans,

Just wondering if your college of elders has reached any decisions yet
on the tech trade offer.

Cap'n Calico Hercules



This from GT ( PUT)


There has been no real decision reached yet (I'll see if I can prod the discussion along a bit), but the general consensus
seems to be that we provide Industrial Base to you in exchange for Doctrine: Mobility and the Cybernetic
Comm-frequency, which we have reason to beleive you have acquired.