..Re: Pirate/Borg/PUT trade deals of 2127

[Hercules]

Also GT wants to negotiate via Msn or Mirc.

My view on PUT proposals. We only wanted quick tech exchange pending more detailed treaty discussions between our factions. They have upped the proposal by looking for a comm channel. I wondered what gave them reason for this. It isn't our SE settings, so they must have concluded this after checking in the Dip channel, to see what techs they could trade to us and discovered we had Info Nets and Plan nets. There are ony a limited number of ways for us to do this. DJ or the Borg.

However Ind Base is a normal starting tech for the Borg (I think didn't some of the research factions ask Googlie for different start techs), so we could say ( bluffing) well if we had contact with them, wouldn't we have got Ind Base from them (the Borg). But in that case they would say we have DJ comm.

[Hercules]

Re the Borg

My view. It seems the deal is on in principle, but the exchange seems unbalanced. Applied Physics though is useful in direct exchange I suppose for Progenitor Psych (again we should place restrictions). But I don't think they fully recognise the tremendous benefit in terms of years of research saved and the economic cost to us in being able to offer this deal.

If the deal falls through with the PUT we will need a splitting of costs in buying from Roze in addition to everything else.

[Hercules]

I have sent this via email to GT

Thanks for your response. It will be considered by the council of
pirates. Cuspidore BB indicates he will be back on line around 12 midday
his time 17.00/18.00 GMT.

Cap'n Calico Herc

PS re Mirc. I have difficulty with my comp, posting anything. I can't
even reply to PMs with another PM.

Cuspidore BB may have better access.

[johndmuller]

I'm not sure I like either deal very much - in the case of the PUT, it is obviously uneven, IMhO if anyone should be paying a premium in that deal it should be them - in the case of the CyCon not only do we place little value in the Biogenetics tech and the IndBase tech has been superceded to some extent by IndEcoon, but also the overall deal saves them two cycles of research (and potentially a third or even fourth if they were not offered the right techs) whereas it only saves us 1 cycle if we were to switch our research to IndAuto right now (possibly 2 if we had bad fortune in the tech choice).

If both of them are intransigent, I think we should seriously consider telling them both where to go and switching our research to IndAuto right now. Failing that, we would probably be better served by taking the deal with the PUT - then the Cycon would be forced to ante up something decent, having no possible rationale for such a 1 for 1 trade outlook. There would also be an element of poetic justice in that we would be helping the Borg's supposed enemy, thus 'serving them right'.

At the very least, though, we should probably tell the PUT that we do have other options for getting IndBase, so if they think they have us over a barrel because we said 'time sensitive' they can risk their chance of getting Doc:Mobility on whether or not we get it elsewhere (i.e. "Make a trade or stop wasting my time"). I don't know how likely an alliance between the PUT and the Borg might be, but the losers in that deal would likely be us, so I don't think we can afford to give away the links (which of course work both ways, so if we give them to the PUT, the CyCon have them too).

As to the Borg, I think that they need a gentle (or not so gentle) reminder of how good this deal is for them, and that not only did we shell out good P's of E and a good ship dealing with Roze, but we are also ending up with 2 techs we don't truly need (Biogen and IndBase) and their impact on our already inflated tech cost. Personally, I think that they ought to throw in Biogen for free and maybe a share of our out of pocket costs, especially if we have to buy the IndBase too. I think the deal should look more like this: We provide the IndBase, IndEcon, the ship, the 100 to 200 P's of E and the certainty of getting IndAuto in 2 to 4 turns - they give us the Biogen, the IndAuto, half the P's of E and a tech to be named later (I'm not sure that Applied Physics is good enough). Progen Psych would be traded for Applied Physics if necessary to give them a second tech choice.

I still think we ought to mention our contact with the PUT before the Borg bring it up themselves - thus casting us in the light of trying to hide it from them and putting us on the defensive; I don't know how the PUT would legitimately know that we have contact with the CyCon, but the CyCon definitely are able to know that we have contact with the PUT. If they knew that one of out options for getting IndBase was to trade with the PUT, they might be more than happy to give away Biogen.

I have no problem with foregoing the HGP, at least for some period of time - say 10 to 15 years; it is something we could use to help with a GA pop boom.

I'm sort of rambling here; I'll wait for some feedback before I do anything.

[Hercules]

Yeah I think you have it about right in your summation.

With the PUT I think we maybe should approach it by saying something along the lines as you suggest, that we can get Ind base elsewhere but we thought they would value the opportunity to trade as a preliminary to more detailed and less hasty negotiations.

A stronger line is needed with the Borg definitely but I would hate to lose the deal and maybe you could say that many of the captains are a bit disappointed.

The future promises we want would relate to Doc: Init, if they get it first. You can mention the PUT but not their location. But this is going to make them the comm links as part of future deals if not this. You can also repeat we don't actually need Ind. Base to research Ind Auto. But overall ask them to rethink or we'll both be losers.

Back in 30 mins

[Hercules]

Ok I am back, but 'poly seems very slow at the moment.

I don't think we both should negotiate. Also I am still not sure that just because we have a Pact with the Borg that they can know for sure we have treaty with the PUT. I think you only know for sure when you have direct contact yourself. They now know we have contact with DJ.

Without Doc: Flex they can't meet each other because of that stretch of water and the Fungus.

Here's an interesting consideration. We could say to the PUT we think that they have met with the Hive and could we have that comm channel for one of our comm channels (seeing as they are unsure of who we have met: the Borg or DJ.
Let them deny it.

I mean how did the Hive and the Drones get Info Nets and Plan nets?

If it gets difficult to post here lets resort to email and post a copy here later.

If you are not already in the priocess we need to get back to the PUT and the Borg.

[johndmuller]

Cap'n Herc: I am very convinced that due to the Pact, which provides the same info as infiltration, the Borg will know our status with the PUT. There may be some qualifications, like perhaps things are murkier during Solar Flares or perhaps the status info is only updated at the beginning of each round of turns, but most of the time they will know. If you look at the profiles of Roze and of Miriam you will see in our profile of Roze (where we have infiltration) that she has a pact with Miriam, but on our profile of Miriam, we see nothing of that. So also will the Borg's profile of us show our contacts just as we see them, not according to only their own info.

I like your plan w/r the PUT, why don't you contact them and try it out, along with our previously discussed one about how we can get it elsewhere, but just want to warm up our relationship with them, etc., if you want. All things considered, I would rather get it from them than the DJ's (remember, the DJ's can use our money or techs against us too; we are their neighbors).

For my part, I'll try to remind the Borg of their proper perspective on what we are doing for them. As I see it, the more important of these discussions at the moment is with the PUT, as we may have to give (or at least offer) them something during this turn of ours to expect anything back (pre=accepted) on our next turn, which is what we want to have happen. Note: we don't have to accept a trade with them (assuming we haven't pre-accepted and thus already given them our half of the trade ourselves) until after trying our hand next turn getting it from the DJ's if we want to check out those options first; the trade will still be there to accept after our turn has started too. Getting nback to the CyCon again, we don't have to give them anything this turn - if won't affect the timing of the tech switching unless the Borg refuse to send Biogen and we are stuck with getting the IndBase from the DJs, in which case it will be a crap shoot as to which tech Roze offers,

[Hercules]

OK I will contact the PUT along those lines.

[johndmuller]

I sent this to Maniac of the CyCon:

I think that we are generally on the same page regarding our goals and the procedure necessary to advance ourselves to Industrial Auto at all ahead full.

Your request w/r to the HGP is reasonable, but we might prefer a fixed time frame after which we could build it (especially if some 3rd party were building it and you were not); after all it would be of use to us too, helping us to GA pop boom.

Your proposed exchanges appear balanced at first glance, but our Cap'n's Council does not consider your proposed contributions to be commensurate with the benefits you will be receiving, most particularly compared with the costs and expected benefits we will receive. I hope we will not have to call in Ambassador/Cap'n Flubber once again to point out the disadvantages of driving too hard a bargain with us.

You are in a position to research IndAuto all by yourselves in a few turns plus 2 complete research cycles (at least 2, with bad luck on the tech offerings it could be up to 4 research cycles). The proposed deal gives it to you in just 3 turns or so.

On our own, we could switch to IndAuto right now and research it in 1 tech cycle (maybe 2 if we were unlucky) suffering an irritating, but affordable research penalty for the switch. Clearly, our current position is substantially ahead of yours in this area - your proposed arrangement does not reflect our relative starting positions.

We are obliged to obtain 2 techs we don't really need at this point (IndBase and BioGen) and possibly Applied Physics, causing a steep increase in our already formidable research costs. Additionally, we have already expended 100 P's of E and a 5 row ship (and crew and the negative turn advantage of losing it) and may have to expend an additional 100 P's of E to get the IndBase. For your part, the negatives seem to be 1 turn of inefficiency (maybe) due to switching your allocation and the possibility of having to acquire a tech you may not need (ProgenPsych).

As to putting the IndAuto into our column instead of into both, that is debatable; we will both be getting it as a result of this deal, and as I said above, we would have been getting it in half the time you would have gotten it if we do not make this deal.

I believe that an equitable arrangement, one that our Council would likely approve, would be in addition to the breakdown you listed, for you to share the cash expenses with us and to provide an additional tech to us (perhaps Applied Physics, perhaps some future tech). Further, if we find that we have exceeded our available time before readhing an agreement with you and have to switch our research to IndAuto to protect ourselves agqinst the possibility of not reaching agreement, then we will need additional compensation when the negotiations are concluded.

Please bear in mind that you can expect no better deal should we need to interrupt Ambassador/Cap'n Flubber on his vacation to explain his version of your options.

Assuming things are going to work out, we tip a mug of xenogrog your way.

the Cuspidore BrownBeard

[johndmuller]

No reply as of now from Borg; see y'all tomorrow.

[Hercules]

This from GT in response to email to PUT

Your message has been posted in our private forum, and I await responses from the rest of the team. Hopefully I'll be able
to give our final answer fairly soon.

[Googlie]

I don't want to put a spanner in the works, but it's now over 72 hours since the turn was posted

I think I should give an explanation (after all, 2 of the other 4 players know the reason for the delay - in fact some are causing it ) along the lines of:

Due to protracted negotiations between several factions I have authorized a futher 24 hour extension for playing of this crucial turn

Unless one of the PEACE members posts an explanation I propose posting this to the general turn tracking thread at 18:00 hours GMT today (10:00 am Pacific)

G.

[Hercules]

Hi Googlie,

I agree I thought the negotiations would be complete by now.

I will post a notification. However I want to disguise the fact three
factions are involved so I will post some along the lines you propose
only leaving out the word several.

Cap'n Hercules

[johndmuller]

I posted something already, may not be direct enough to suit everybody, but nobody has been complaining either, so I suppose they can figure what's going on more or less.

[johndmuller]

Drogue (Borg) Reply to BB's #3

This in from the Borg, a disappointing response. There is a second part I have yet to read, as I have been having trouble copying this message (as well as other funky difficulties (anyone know what svchost.exe does?), but now I seem to have done the copying at least.

I am inclined to stonewall them on this (perhaps offering them a slight discount to 75 ec's, but otherwise insisting on an extra tech. I had (and will have again) a more detailed position on this, but it was a casualty of the reboot I had to do to try to fix my system problems. There is ample time to argue with them, as it is the PUT negotiation that is really on the critical path; when it is the Borg's turn, several elements may become critical then, especially if we can't come up with IndAuto from the PUT. Meanwhile we should consider switching to IndAuto ourselves if we are unable to come up with a deal with the Borg; that will show them we are serious and give them something to worry about - it will take them 2 to 4 whole cycles of research to get IndAuto on their own (plus the rest of the one they are in).

---------------------(message from Drogue below)--------------

Diplomacy pt 1

Greetings Cuspidore and Captain Hercules

As External Affairs Function, I come to you regarding the deal we are trying to broker.

With regards to your request for costs or an extra tech, I bring you our arguments:

You claim that you are spending an extra 200ec, and that is true, but you are also receiving an extra 2 techs for it. You gain the two techs from the angels and then two from us. Indeed, how you came across those techs is not of concern to us. You have spent 200ec to get two techs, but that is separate from our deal. Our deal was to trade two techs each (the two you received from the Angels, for 1 we currently have and 1 we are about to get). Your aregument for us to pay some of the costs of the techs is illogical. If we were to pay half the costs say, then we have both had an equal outlay, and would both have an equal claim to the two techs. Thus we would not trade you two techs as well for the equal share of those techs we already would have. Our Pact was founded on the idea of fair trade, one tech each, as brokered by myself and Flubber. We would like to honour that.

You also claim that the techs you are getting are worth less. We disagree strongly. We have met Miriam, and I will disclose details of how that happened later (for another deal). Ind Base is considerably important when faced with Miriam, as the synthmetal armour is needed to combat her aggressiveness and superior attacking forces. Also, Biogenetics gives you the ability to build the Rec Tanks, and leads to Gene Splicing, one of the most important techs. You would have to research or trade for it soon, since Gene Splicing is particularly important to aquatic factions. Moreover, Progenitor Psych is as near as completely useless as you can get, since there are no Progenitors on Chiron. Therefore we could use the lack of use argument just as well.

You also point out that you could get Ind Auto quicker, in 1 cycle than two. That is very true. However we have a quicker tech cycle, so that is not such a disadvantage to us, and with the penalty to you for changing, it may not be quicker actually. It will certainly not be half the time as you claim. We do realise that you are ahead regarding it though, and you are our Pact Brothers. Thus to reflect that, and as a mark of goodwill, we offer 25ec (being the amount you gave us last time, plus inflation).

Our Pact was built on cooperation and equal trade. We offer one tech for another, and we do not hold back on any tech. We also lose out on inefficiency through changing, however if you were to agree not to trade Biogenetics, nor build the HGP, for 25 turns, we would see that as a fair trade. Biogenetics is still an extremely important tech, especially for you, as mentioned above. We both want Ind Auto ASAP, and this gives us both the advantage compared to others. You came to us with this deal, and thus you seemed to think it was worthwhile. We agree, and would like to trade as originally suggested. Adding extra things at this stage just complicates it, and makes it seem to some in the CyCon that you wanted to get us to agree and then ask for extra stuff. I do not believe that, I trust you and I want to make this deal, which is why I have fought to get a small concession, as Flubber did for us last time, as a mark of goodwill. You mentioned about the lack of time, which would have been much eased if you had not sprung these concessions you wanted. I understand that some of the Pirates feel as some CyCon do, that the other side is trying to get the better deal, at the expense. I assure you that is not the case from our side. We wish friendship and trade that we both gain from.

-------------------------(part 2 of their message -$^%$#$@#in msg sz limit) ----------

Damn it, I can't copy again!!!!!!!!

Anyway, the rest of it is mainly a restatement of their trade lists, adding an insulting 25ec's to their offer and arguing against my weak argument that putting IndAuto into only their side was debatable.