Election : Director of Social Engineering

[Archaic]

Originally posted by Cedayon
One question for Archaic: In what way would electing you have an effect on our chances of going FM in the next econ poll? In what way would it affect anything related to the econ (or other SE/spending) polls?

I direct the same question at Pan.

Unfortunatly, probably nothing, as these positions are largely symbolic. All I can do is portray FM in a better light in my posts than Pan does, and attempt to post all the statistics in the polls before anyone has a chance to vote.

Originally posted by Pandemoniak
While Archaic pretends he had not the time to post a poll about Knowledge, he had the time to post several polls about FM during the same week.
While he pretends he didnt know that people wanted Knowledge since there were no discussions about it, he clearly ignored
a) the three warning I sent him before I start an impeachment on himHe also ignores that this poll
b) the poll voted a couple of days before his election, clearly saying (about 80%, IIRC) that people wanted Knowledge.

I do NOT pretend at all Pan, so enough with your political mudslinging. The 1st FM poll I did was invalidated because of the change in the constitution, and several of the others had to be closed because I'd accidently posted the poll incorrectly. In truth, I posted only 2 FM polls, including that invalidated one, because I had to repost the same thread multipule times because of a few simple errors. And it's not like I'm the only person who's goofed up with the polls.

a) I did not ignore this. I'd already stated publically why I had not started a Knowledge Poll
b) I do not recall this poll, and I certainly didn't recall it at the time. As far as I remembered now and then, the only poll on Knowledge was during October, when our conditions were far different.

Originally posted by Pandemoniak
The simplest reason to support me on this election is that I have proven my efficiency at carrying the people's will, while on the contrary, Archaic has shown his scorn for the people and their will.

You are a lower class philosophy major. I am a lower middle class international business major. Tell me, who has more knowledge about government, business and society? And who has more of an ulterior motive behind their election? Your background clouds your judgement on these issues, and that extends to how you present the various forms of economic systems to the public. There's a big difference between us Pan. I don't lie.

Originally posted by Drogue
While TKG is right, in that Archaic did post credit to Cedayon, he does make an interesting point:

I think this is sadly true, which is much of a shame, since he has a lot that is of interest to say. I do not see why someone who is obviously intelligent, and a good SMAC player, needs to resort to the styel of debating that he does in order to get his message across? But then again, this could be just the different idea's of debating we have. I have learned a lot from what he's posted, I just wish I didn't have to sift through all the insults, telling people why their wrong, where their logic went wrong etc. to get to his opinions and his arguments. Sorry about this, but I felt I needed to mention it.

rant over.

And what exactly is wrong with telling people why they're wrong and where their logic went wrong? That's how you are supposed to debate. As for the insults...one can only take so much. I think you'll find I've rather cut down on them in the last few months.

[Maniac]

You are a lower class philosophy major. I am a lower middle class international business major. Tell me, who has more knowledge about government, business and society? And who has more of an ulterior motive behind their election? Your background clouds your judgement on these issues, and that extends to how you present the various forms of economic systems to the public.

/me 's jaw falls on the floor.

[Archaic]

I'll assume you didn't get the point of that from the implied sarcasm there.

In short....Pan IRL would probably be one of "the disadvantaged" under a Free Market, so he supports other systems, which give him a "better deal". Also, his background gives him little knowledge of actual eonomic or political structures. He's a philosophy major. He's full of good intentions....and I don't think I need to finish the saying there.

In my case, under a Free Market, I'm also probably going to be one of "the disadvantaged". In fact, I'd be living better off under Planned or Green economics. However, I still present the Free Market as better. Why? Because I'm not just taking myself into consideration here. And unlike Pan, I've actually got the academic background to understand these issues, and that extends to how I present the various forms of economic systems to the public

[Hercules]

I had already voted before I saw the stats ( wonderful work Cedayon). So what does it prove. Swings and roundabouts. When you start fighting/ defending against other factions that -5 is a big penalty.

[Archaic]

It proves a hell of a lot. FM w/ 20% Psych beats Planned and Green by a massive margin in tech, credits, and the happiness of our citizens

- 5 Police a disadvantage when you're defending against other factions? Bull****. It's only a disadvantage when you're attacking, and quite frankly, the citizens have every right to complain about your warmongering. Establish a mostly specialist base with crawlers on condensors the few talents/workers on Boreholes and rehome every combat unit we produce there before moving it out of our territory. Problem solved.

And here I was thinking you people wanted to fight this on RP issues. Yet you suddenly decide to ignore them whenever they're convenient for you, as evidenced by the CNN Special Documentary. Hypocrisy.

[Cedayon]

Originally posted by Archaic And here I was thinking you people wanted to fight this on RP issues. Yet you suddenly decide to ignore them whenever they're convenient for you, as evidenced by the CNN Special Documentary. Hypocrisy.

I also have reservations about what happens to people under a planned economy (and, to a lesser extent, a green one) but what could they possibly have done in response to a bit of fiction written by an opponent? There's no way we can find in-game evidence to either confirm or deny GTs allegations.

I am curious, though, if any of the planned or green supporters can give me assurance that our people would be allowed to choose their job (or if they even work, should they have another means with which to support themselves). Anyone?

edit: a job that they're qualified for, of course. The definition of "qualified" could be an interesting debate, but I think that at least could come to a conclusion.

[Archaic]

Originally posted by Cedayon
I also have reservations about what happens to people under a planned economy (and, to a lesser extent, a green one) but what could they possibly have done in response to a bit of fiction written by an opponent? There's no way we can find in-game evidence to either confirm or deny GTs allegations.

Make a similar news story on the Free Trade zone of Terminal Dogma? Many of these RP things aren't supported in game as is anyway.

[Pandemoniak]

Originally posted by Cedayon
I am curious, though, if any of the planned or green supporters can give me assurance that our people would be allowed to choose their job (or if they even work, should they have another means with which to support themselves). Anyone?

By which means could we force them to choose a job ?

None, I say, while a democratic free market will allow them to choose their job de lego sed non de facto -- I like this Bakounian expression, of right, but not in fact -- a Planned economy would not force them to chose their job, neither a Green economy, for the simple reason that it gives us no way to force anyone.

My opinion doesnt change what I said before. Now lets answer to Archaics IRL guess...

[Pandemoniak]

Originally posted by Archaic


Unfortunatly, probably nothing, as these positions are largely symbolic. All I can do is portray FM in a better light in my posts than Pan does, and attempt to post all the statistics in the polls before anyone has a chance to vote.

Thats it, all he can do is to portray what he likes better than what I dislike and post Cedayon's statistics. We're here voting for the person who will carry the will of the people, not for a system.

I do NOT pretend at all Pan, so enough with your political mudslinging. The 1st FM poll I did was invalidated because of the change in the constitution, and several of the others had to be closed because I'd accidently posted the poll incorrectly.

As said by the Judges, this 1st FM poll wasnt invalidated because it has a clear result and was made before the amendment. The amendment wasnt retroactive. The polls accidently posted incorrectly doesnt matter, this happen to everyone, but it doesnt matter as long as it is corrected -- they were corrected, so it doesnt matter.

In truth, I posted only 2 FM polls, including that invalidated one, because I had to repost the same thread multipule times because of a few simple errors. And it's not like I'm the only person who's goofed up with the polls.

you posted the two in a very tight interval of time, so you cannot pretend you were running out of time for the knowledge poll.

a) I did not ignore this. I'd already stated publically why I had not started a Knowledge Poll
b) I do not recall this poll, and I certainly didn't recall it at the time. As far as I remembered now and then, the only poll on Knowledge was during October, when our conditions were far different.

Thats why you should have polled about Knowledge when you've been asked to. The thing is that you ignored the petititon because he was led by me, and because you prefer wealth. I didnt hesitate to present FM with a 40/20/40 energy allocation, even if it was your petition.

You are a lower class philosophy major.

Errr.... not really. I am a film student -- majored a few years ago, if i know correctly the education system you're talking about. I also studied drama structures, religious anthroplogy, computer programming, litterature, general history of art, history and political history. Moreover I am a militant (dunno the english word, dunno if it eneven exists) since I was 12. I also worked in a public hospital, emergency and ward, in several farms, growing from potatoes to grapes, not to mention directing films, etc...

I am a lower middle class international business major. Tell me, who has more knowledge about government, business and society? And who has more of an ulterior motive behind their election? Your background clouds your judgement on these issues, and that extends to how you present the various forms of economic systems to the public. There's a big difference between us Pan. I don't lie.

The logic answer to that would be mean...

Spoiler:

Archaic is too young to be a director

such an argument is nonsense, as much as yours actually...

And what exactly is wrong with telling people why they're wrong and where their logic went wrong? That's how you are supposed to debate. As for the insults...one can only take so much. I think you'll find I've rather cut down on them in the last few months.

Indeed for the results, I agree you quite calmed down -- newcame citizens cant even imagine how you were at these times... But even if the people's logic and the people are wrong, you have to carry out their will. Thats a democracy.

-- The people knows everything --
Mikhael Gorbatchev, just elected first secretary

-- Gorbatchev doesnt know a thing --
Vladimir Putin, when he was in the KGB

-- What exactly is wrong with telling people why they're wrong ? -Archaic, running candidate for DoSE

[GeneralTacticus]

As said by the Judges, this 1st FM poll wasnt invalidated because it has a clear result and was made before the amendment. The amendment wasnt retroactive.

The amendment was proposed because people saw problems with the poll, so obviously another one was needed.

But even if the people's logic and the people are wrong, you have to carry out their will. Thats a democracy.

He's not talking about refusing to obey polls because he disagrees with people, he's answering Drogue's complaint that in order to find what Archaic has to say, he has to 'sift through' him pointing out toher people's mistakes.

[Kirov]

Archaic, your first post was pretty good and surprisingly nice. Tho I've given up any attempts to debate with you some time ago, now I'd like to tell you a few things.

I've really noticed a slight change in your way of conduct, but what you sometimes say is unacceptable amongst people with good manners. Drogue is right and I gave up reading your posts because I was simply tired of reading filth to get something about your actual opinions. But what's wrong with telling people they are wrong, you say? Well, that depends on whether you want to actually transmit any message to them or not. If you make people detest you they will not listen to your opinions. But I have an impression you simply derive a pleasure from offending people and you actually don't want to convince them to anything.

The next problem is you are the only citizen here who often forget that what you say is your opinion, not the Ultimate Truth of the Universe as told to Archaic by the Creator. Sometimes, eg when you claim that "you don't lie" on the contrary of Pande, I can only laugh. But it's actually sad. One must be very narrow-minded to claim he knows the real truth. The best you can do is to doubt in everything what you are told. In my opinion, that is thinking.

You laugh that Pande would be one of the "disadvantaged" under FM and that you have academic background about economic issues. I don't know how's about Pande but I can assure you that academic knowledge is not everything. I wonder if you know, if you fully understand what the real poverty is. Be grateful for what you have and don't despise those in the worse condition. Laughing at the "disadvantaged" (which I believe Pande is not) makes me really see red.

Oh, and as for CNN documentary, it was a great contribution to RP itself (good work, GT). But to claim it's "evidence" of any sort is a misunderstanding. Imagine that under FM I would run up a dreadful story about, let's say, slavery and were claiming it's actually happening... I can write a whole darn novel about abusing the people, but it won't prove anything.

Anyway, sorry for such a long post.

[Cedayon]

Originally posted by Pandemoniak
By which means could we force them to choose a job ?

Well, one system involves determining what job a citizen should perfrom, and telling them to do that job. The choice to not do that job is sometimes available (depends on the system), but that choice means they won't work at all. It's pretty much a "the government's way or the highway" sort of deal. Is something else happening in our current economy? What about the proposed Green economy? How would people become employees (ie they submit a request to the employer, or to the government, or do they receive one or more possibilities from the government)?

while a democratic free market will allow them to choose their job de lego sed non de facto -- I like this Bakounian expression, of right, but not in fact

Meaning that certain people would not be able to get certain jobs? I'd take that as a given to the extent that someone without medical training couldn't be a doctor. Or do you mean that the poor would be "forced" by circumstances to work in low-paying jobs(perhaps in appalling conditions not known to the government) because they couldn't afford the education to become eligible for the better jobs? That's a real concern for me, but I'm very confident that we can solve the problem of this sort of poverty if we have enough wealth to fund educational programs and the appropriate infrastructure. There don't have to be any poor people! I've already gone over (in another thread) how all drones under 40/20/40 could be converted to presumably-above-the-poverty-line citizens. Or do you think there are still poor even in drone-less society? If so, point them out to me and I'll look into how their conditions could be improved under FM.

Sorry for rambling on, but I'm really trying to find the people you say will suffer under FM, and find out how to ensure the system will work for them too. FM = more wealth = better conditions for everyone if (big if) that wealth is properly used.

[Drogue]

Yet you suddenly decide to ignore them whenever they're convenient for you, as evidenced by the CNN Special Documentary. Hypocrisy.

No, we gave an RP answer, we don't believe it is true, and moreover, if it is true, it is not in our regions. I agree with RP arguments, however that documentary was propaganda. We did not ignore it, we simply said that we do not feel it is correct. That is true both IRL and RPing, as the Governor of Akiria, if I knew that didn't happen in Akiria, I would deny it.

[Hercules]

As Dir of Peacekeeping Ops I can only ask for the units. How and when they are delivered is Alpha, DIa and Governors concern.

[GeneralTacticus]

You laugh that Pande would be one of the "disadvantaged" under FM and that you have academic background about economic issues. I don't know how's about Pande but I can assure you that academic knowledge is not everything. I wonder if you know, if you fully understand what the real poverty is. Be grateful for what you have and don't despise those in the worse condition. Laughing at the "disadvantaged" (which I believe Pande is not) makes me really see red.

...? He was claiming that while both he and Pande would be 'disadvantaged' under FM, he supports FM because he knows more about economics than Pande, while Pande doesn't because because he doesn't know as much about economics. I don't see any launghing at 'the disadvantaged' here...