Election : Director of Social Engineering

[Lemmy]

Candidates:

Archaic
Pandemoniak

3 days voting time

[Archaic]

Thanks go out to Cedayon for compiling and providing the comprehensive Socio-Economic stats below. They have been used with permission.

These stats are as of the '35 save.

First, how our people and environment would fare under the proposed economies:
The format of the numbers is: (total pop)/(talents)/(citizens)/(drones)/(eco damage)/(specialists)
I omit the specialist field in the regional and grand totals.
Specialists are counted as normal citizens, in the specialists field I put the number and then the type, ie 2d for 2 doctors and 3l for 3 librarians. If there are doctors, and those doctors can be put back on the field without changing anything, I put (nc) in the field. I put (GA) after everything if there were no drones and more talents than civs (and the city's big enough to have a GA). In the FM column I marked if there were military units outside of territory that were causing drones, (1m) means 1 such military unit. (GA?) means I think a GA happens with those stats, but I'm not sure. The (d=GA) means a doctor would cause the conditions for a GA to be fulfilled. The *'s mean that doctor(s) and a remedy for the mil-out-of-territory drones would lead to a GA in those bases.

City        | Planned 50/0/50      | Green 50/0/50        | FM 40/20/40          |
------------|----------------------|----------------------|----------------------|
New Apolyton| 9/2/7/0/0/0          | Same as Planned      | 9/6/3/0/0/0 (GA)     |
TBIBTU      | 9/1/8/0/0/2t         | Same as Planned      | 9/3/4/2/0/2t (1m) *  |
Tacticus Ac.| 9/1/8/0/9/1t         | 9/2/7/0/3/1t         | 9/4/5/0/18/1t (d=GA) |
Antioch     | 9/1/8/0/0/2t         | Same as Planned      | 9/4/3/2/0/2t (1m) *  |
R. Total    | 36/5/31/0/9          | 36/6/30/0/3          | 36/17/15/4/18        |
------------|----------------------|----------------------|----------------------|              
Aurora      | 3/1/2/0/0/0          | Same as Planned      | Same as Planned      |
New Tass.   | 8/2/5/1/0/2d         | 8/2/6/0/0/2d         | 8/3/4/1/0/2d         |
Twin Peaks  | 2/1/1/0/0/0          | Same as Planned      | Same as Planned      |
Cyclops     | 3/1/2/0/0/0          | Same as Planned      | Same as Planned      |
UNMI        | 4/1/2/1/0/2d         | 4/1/3/0/0/2d         | Same as Green        |
R. Total    | 20/6/12/2/0          | 20/6/14/0/0          | 20/7/12/1/0          |
------------|----------------------|----------------------|----------------------|
Concordia   | 16/3/11/2/0/2l,3d    | 16/3/12/1/0/2l,3d    | 16/6/9/1/0/2l,3d     |
Pandemonium | 9/0/9/0/0/3l         | 9/1/8/0/0/3l         | 9/2/7/0/0/3l         |
Term. Dogma | 9/2/6/1/0/0          | 9/2/7/0/0/0          | 9/4/4/1/0/0          |
Sheathed Sw.| 9/2/6/1/0/2l         | 9/1/8/0/0/2l         | 9/2/7/0/0/2l         |
Valhalla    | 3/1/2/0/0/0          | Same as Planned      | 3/2/1/0/0/0  (GA?)   |
R. Total    | 46/8/34/4/0          | 46/8/37/1/0          | 46/16/28/2/0         |
------------|----------------------|----------------------|----------------------|
New Suez    | 9/2/6/1/3/1d         | 9/2/6/1/1/1d         | 9/5/4/0/6/1d(nc) (GA)|
Mysidia     | 8/2/5/1/0/2d         | 8/2/6/0/0/2d         | 8/3/5/0/0/2d         |
Crystalis   | 4/1/2/1/0/1d         | 4/1/3/0/0/1d         | 4/2/1/1/0/1d         |
Trans. Acad.| 3/1/2/0/0/0          | Same as Planned      | Same as Planned      |
UNRC        | 2/1/1/0/0/0          | Same as Planned      | Same as Planned      |
R. Total    | 26/7/16/3/3          | 26/7/18/1/1          | 26/12/13/1/6         |
------------|----------------------|----------------------|----------------------|
Zan. Gate   | 6/1/5/0/0/1d(nc)     | 6/2/4/0/0/1d(nc)     | 6/3/3/0/0/1d(nc)(GA?)|
UNPD        | 9/2/6/1/0/0          | 9/2/7/0/0/0          | 9/4/5/0/0/0          |
Deus Ex M.  | 9/2/7/0/0/1d         | 9/2/7/0/0/1d(nc)     | 9/3/6/0/0/1d         |
Xanadu      | 5/1/3/1/0/0          | 5/2/2/1/0/0          | 5/2/1/2/0/0          |
R.Total     | 29/6/21/2/0          | 29/8/20/1/0          | 29/12/15/2/0         |
------------|----------------------|----------------------|----------------------|
Ankh-Morpork| 3/1/2/0/0/0          | Same as Planned      | 3/1/1/1/0/0          |
Metropolis  | 2/1/1/0/0/0          | Same as Planned      | Same as Planned      |
------------|----------------------|----------------------|----------------------|
G. Total:   | 162/34/117/11/12     | 162/37/122/3/4       | 162/66/85/11/24      |
------------|----------------------|----------------------|----------------------|

And a second table for the more economic side of things: The format of the numbers is (minerals)/(total energy)/(ECs)/(Research)
Minerals, of course, don't change from setting to setting, but I included them anyway.

City        | Planned 50/0/50      | Green 50/0/50        | FM 40/20/40          |
------------|----------------------|----------------------|----------------------|
New Apolyton| 25/16/17/18          | Same as Planned      | 25/ 29/ 24/22        |
TBIBTU      | 13/15/26/12          | Same as Planned      | 13/ 21/ 28/14        |
Tacticus Ac.| 27/23/28/18          | 27/24/30/18          | 27/ 32/ 32/20        |
Antioch     | 15/15/26/12          | 15/17/28/14          | 15/ 23/ 30/14        |
R. Total    | 80/69/97/60          | 80/72/101/62         | 80/105/114/70        |
------------|----------------------|----------------------|----------------------|
Aurora      | 10/ 4/ 2/ 2          | 10/ 5/ 2/ 3          | 10/ 8/ 3/ 3          |
New Tass.   | 11/ 9/ 4/ 8          | 11/10/ 5/ 8          | 11/16/ 6/11          |
Twin Peaks  |  4/ 2/ 1/ 1          |  4/ 3/ 1/ 2          |  4/ 4/ 2/ 1          |
Cyclops     |  4/ 3/ 1/ 2          |  4/ 5/ 2/ 3          |  4/ 6/ 2/ 3          |
UNMI        |  2/ 6/ 3/ 3          | Same as Planned      |  2/ 9/ 4/ 3          |
R. Total    | 31/24/11/16          | 31/29/13/19          | 31/43/17/21          |
------------|----------------------|----------------------|----------------------|
Concordia   | 19/17/12/23          | 19/20/15/24          | 19/29/18/26          |
Pandemonium |  9/12/ 6/23          |  9/14/ 7/24          |  9/16/ 6/24          |
Term. Dogma | 17/ 8/ 4/ 6          | 17/10/ 5/ 8          | 17/18/ 7/11          |
Sheathed Sw.|  8/ 5/ 2/14          |  8/ 7/ 3/15          |  8/13/ 5/17          |
Valhalla    |  5/ 5/ 2/ 3          |  5/ 7/ 3/ 4          |  5/ 9/ 4/ 3          |
R. Total    | 58/47/26/69          | 58/58/33/75          | 58/85/40/81          | 
------------|----------------------|----------------------|----------------------|
New Suez    | 26/16/16/12          | 26/17/16/14          | 26/24/20/14          |
Mysidia     | 16/ 8/ 6/ 4          | 16/ 9/ 6/ 5          | 16/16/ 9/ 7          |
Crystalis   |  6/ 8/ 4/ 4          |  6/ 9/ 4/ 5          |  6/11/ 4/ 5          |
Trans. Acad.|  3/ 3/ 1/ 2          | Same as Planned      |  3/ 6/ 2/ 3          |
UNRC        |  0/ 1/ 0/ 1          |  0/ 2/ 1/ 1          |  0/ 4/ 2/ 1          |
R. Total    | 51/36/27/23          | 51/40/28/27          | 51/61/37/29          |
------------|----------------------|----------------------|----------------------|
Zan. Gate   | 14/10/ 8/ 8          | Same as Planned      | 14/14/ 9/ 8          |
UNPD        | 17/17/12/14          | 17/18/14/14          | 17/28/17/17          |
Deus Ex M.  | 18/ 9/ 4/ 8          | 18/11/ 5/ 9          | 18/21/ 8/14          |
Xanadu      |  8/ 4/ 2/ 2          |  8/ 6/ 3/ 3          |  8/ 9/ 4/ 3          |
R. Total    | 57/40/26/32          | 57/45/30/34          | 57/72/38/42          |
------------|----------------------|----------------------|----------------------|
Ankh-Morpork|  3/ 1/ 0/ 1          |  3/ 2/ 1/ 1          |  3/ 3/ 1/ 1          |
Metropolis  |  4/ 2/ 1/ 1          |  4/ 4/ 2/ 2          |  4/ 5/ 2/ 2          |
------------|----------------------|----------------------|----------------------|
G. Total:   | 284/219/188/202      | 284/250/208/220      | 284/374/249/246      |
------------|----------------------|----------------------|----------------------|

In summary...

Free Market : 40/20/40
Income : 173
Next tech : in 4 turns
Each tech : every 6 turns
Net research : 296.4
+2 Economy : +1 energy per square worked and per city
-5 Police : no police can be used, each military unit outside borders cause 2 unhappy citizens
-3 Planet : -2 production on fungus square, increase ecodamage

Planned : 50/00/50
Income : 111
Next tech : in 5 turns
Each tech : every 8 turns
Net research : 242.4
+1 Industry : mineral costs 10% cheaper
+2 Growth : +20% growth, makes a total of +6 with creches, ie popbooming
-2 Efficiency : increase waste and corruption, decrease cost of cities to be mind controlled

Green : 50/00/50
Income : 131
Next tech : 5 turns
Each tech : every 7 turns
Net research : 264
+2 Planet : can capture mindworms, decrease ecodamage
+2 Efficiency : decrease waste and corruption, increase cost of cities to be mind ctrolled
-2 Growth : brings us back to 0 (normal), +20% with childrens creches


I should note, all the above stats assume Demo and Knowledge. Demo and Wealth might also be a potential combination, however I have no stats for them at this time.



Now that the boring stats are out of the way, it's time to get down to the speech.

You all know who I am. Many of you disagree with my views, and just as many agree, though as for my methods of getting my point across, I doubt I'd find many people here who'd like them. Nevertheless, during this last month I've been meeting you on the ground of your choosing, the RP perspective. While my objectives still have a firm grounding in the game mechanics, I'll be providing you all with more of the real world reasonings behind them.

Firstly though, let me address any concerns you might have about my activity. Last term, by a miracle, I was elected as Director of Social Engineering. However, due to circumstances beyond my control IRL, I was unable to be online often, and thus was unable to keep up properly with the game. Something like that however is a once off thing. The chances of it happening again to me are the same as it happening to Pan, so I believe it to be rather irrelevant to this election. As for my not posting the knowledge poll, besides the fact that I at first didn't even recall it, when I did I was of the opinion that the poll was no longer relevant. It did not necessarily address the views of the citizens of the Demo. Game as they stood during December, but of how it was when our population was far more diverse. Perhaps I was at fault for not posting a poll on it sooner, but then, there hadn't been any discussion on the issue in the past month, and to force a snap poll on such an issue I felt wouldn't be right. There's also my limited ability to access the net then to consider. By the time I had the time to post such a poll and there'd been some discussion, the term was over.

Anyway, enough apologising.

It's no secret of the fact that I prefer a FM economy, and indeed, if you're voting for me, that's probably because you feel the same way. As for all previous elections, this looks like it'll be fought over peoples perceptions of the Free Market against Planned or Green economy's, so I suppose all I can do is address your worries about the system, and present problems you may not have considered with the others.

Firstly, let me direct you all to the recent economics poll.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=75217&pagenumber=1

Please everyone, read carefully what GeneralTacticus and Cedayon have to say there, as it addresses many popular strawmans on the RP aspect of a Free Market.

Secondly, let me direct you all to the recent CNN Special Documentary, which has been causing quite some controversy.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=74816

That is your planned economy people. Can this situation be changed without changing the economy? Well, we can outlaw these things, but to outright prevent it from happening under any system, even with laws against it to prevent such loopholes, it's simply impossible. Anyone thinking any form of government or economy can exist without corruption probably needs their head examined. While the law at the moment implicitly allows this, it's not the law that's going to be the ultimate problem. It's the simple fact that people are greedy and corrupt. We cannot solve this under a Free Market, or even the efficient Green economy, but we can at least try and reduce the problem.

This is where the arguements really come into play. Which is better, Free Market or Green? Frankly, I have to wonder if it's worth even discussing the issue after what's been stated in those topics I directed you to above. All I'll say is this.

Ask yourself......which would you rather live in? Take a good long look at the rights afforded to you under both systems. Take them from a duty based perspective such as in the eastern nations of old earth, and consider which you have a bigger duty to. Your fellow people. Or "Planet". A "Planet" we don't even know is displeased by our actions. Please recall exactly what happens when we have "excessive eco-damage".

"Excessive eco-damage"
==> Fungus Growth

Fungus Growth
==> More Mind Worms

Well well, lookie lookie. Fungus Growth and Mind Worms. Excuse me, but isn't this a proliferation of the native flora and fauna in the wake of our "eco-damage". What was considered pollutants back on old earth seems to be encouraging the native eco-system.
Oh, but wait, the mind worms that spawn in the wake of the fungus growth are attacking us, aren't they? So therefore it must be that Planet hates us. Sorry, but this is just a Slippery Slope fallacy. Here's a more reasonable explanation.

The Mind Worms have just been spawned in fungus that's grown near our bases in the eco-damage wake. They need food. Where's the closest food source. Why, it's our bases, isn't it? There you go, one reasonable explanation.

Hell, as shown in the first of those links above, our eco-damage under FM would still be negligible anyway. Leaving the only negative to be police. Again, read that topic again. It seems more a positive than a negative to me, at least from a social and political justice point.

But enough of defending FM.....I want to attack Green for a change.

Growth. Does Green have this? Heavens no. Now...how many new bases are we planning to build? Many. Tell me now, can we afford such low growth for such little benifit? That rules out Green. Planned's already ruled out. To me, the choice is clear. Now it's just up to you people out there if you'll make that same decision.

[GeneralTacticus]

And just another point regarding the effects of ecodamage - I seem to recall a text published by Lady Deirdre Sky, who is probably the greatest expert on Planet with regards to the native ecosystem, in which she stated that the lack fo carbon in the biosphere, and the small amounts used by native plant life, would mean that any large-scale emission of CO2 (which, you should remember, is a prime 'pollutant') would encourage the native life proliferate. Doesn't sound very harmful to me, as long as it doesn't cause global warming.

[Archaic]

Ah yes, that would be Lady Deidre Skye's "Planet: The Early Years", which she wrote on the discovery of the technology necessary for Ecological Engineering.

[Pandemoniak]

We also discovered Centauri : Empathy, thanx to a much more advanced ecological analysis written by Dr. Blake, that hasnt been sent to Lady Deirdre yet, AFAIK.

[Method]

i'll give archaic another chance this time

[Cedayon]

One question for Archaic: In what way would electing you have an effect on our chances of going FM in the next econ poll? In what way would it affect anything related to the econ (or other SE/spending) polls?

I direct the same question at Pan.

[Pandemoniak]

In what way would electing you have an effect on our chances of going FM in the next econ poll?
In what way would it affect anything related to the econ (or other SE/spending) polls?

Nothing except that I would carry out the will of the people. I am now finishing my third term -- well, two and three quarters, actually, seeing I resigned from the Directorate of Terraforming and Colonization -- since we arrived on Planet, out of five terms then. During all this time, I think I have been proving everyday that I was capable to carry the will of the people to our commisionner, whatever this will would be, and whoever this commisioner was.

While Archaic pretends he had not the time to post a poll about Knowledge, he had the time to post several polls about FM during the same week.
While he pretends he didnt know that people wanted Knowledge since there were no discussions about it, he clearly ignored
a) the three warning I sent him before I start an impeachment on himHe also ignores that this poll
b) the poll voted a couple of days before his election, clearly saying (about 80%, IIRC) that people wanted Knowledge.

On the other hand, apart from my resignation a week before the end of my term, due to what I took as a non confidence vote, and which has finally been voted years later -- the Reform of Governors, no one could quote an example of me ignoring the people.

The simplest reason to support me on this election is that I have proven my efficiency at carrying the people's will, while on the contrary, Archaic has shown his scorn for the people and their will.

Pandemoniak,
-- in They had a dream

[DeathByTheSword]

ah one to think about.................

[Method]

Originally posted by Pandemoniak
On the other hand, apart from my resignation a week before the end of my term, due to what I took as a non confidence vote, and which has finally been voted years later -- the Reform of Governors, no one could quote an example of me ignoring the people.

that left us without a DTC for a few weeks too. you resigned over the failure of an incomplete ammendment, when it didn't pass not because YOU wrote it, but because it was incomplete

[Drogue]

Well... I wasn't here then, but I feel that Pande has been the best DSE I have seen while I was here, and has done the most unbiased polls I have seen. Therefore, my vote goes for him.

Go CCCP-STEP alliance

[lucky22]

Unless I am badly mistaken (and who hasn't been once or twice in life), all the stats posted by Archaic are the original work of Cedayon. No credit is given. This, in addition to the lies perpatrated by the "CNN documentary", is quite a character indictment. The act of scammery whereby Cedayon is not encouraged to post them himself but rather is asked to email them to Archaic is there for all to see in the DLP thread.

ALL SMOKE AND MIRRORS- anything he has to say that may be of value is compromised by this goofballery.

[Method]

that's why he said:

Originally posted by Archaic
Thanks go out to Cedayon for compiling and providing the comprehensive Socio-Economic stats below. They have been used with permission.

[Drogue]

While TKG is right, in that Archaic did post credit to Cedayon, he does make an interesting point:

Originally posted by lucky22
anything he has to say that may be of value is compromised by this goofballery.

I think this is sadly true, which is much of a shame, since he has a lot that is of interest to say. I do not see why someone who is obviously intelligent, and a good SMAC player, needs to resort to the styel of debating that he does in order to get his message across? But then again, this could be just the different idea's of debating we have. I have learned a lot from what he's posted, I just wish I didn't have to sift through all the insults, telling people why their wrong, where their logic went wrong etc. to get to his opinions and his arguments. Sorry about this, but I felt I needed to mention it.

rant over.

[lucky22]

As TKG points out, I missed credit where it was due. My apologies, good until first flame.

*sigh*... at least it doesn't look like I've decieved anyone into voting differently than he/she would have anyway.