OFFICIAL : Economics

[Drogue]

But we don't need any pops, and we don't need a higher ED limit. Why win with pops, when we can win without?

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Maniac
Indeed. Obviously the -5 Police should have been given to Democracy, not Free Market.

I don't see why the right to vote would give a -Police either? Why does democracy bring more social freedom either? You can have a benevolent dictator, that grants freedom, and tyranny by majority, where all opinion that is not held by the majority is silenced. Personally, I think the civil rights/freedom aspect is not an issue in SMAC except for faction profiles.

Originally posted by Maniac
and is an example of the typical flawed American(/Anglosaxon?) doctrine that personal freedom is per definition linked to economic freedom.

Not Anglo-Saxon. Most Brits that I know do not make that assumption (and Anglo-Saxon would imply British at some point, wouldn't it?) I've only heard that from Americans before.

[Cedayon]

I have to agree with Drogue on this point: We don't need pops. I say this because we can increase the clean mineral limit with facilities. It'll just be slower. GT: Although you don't mind a few pops (neither do I), it's clear that many do... wouldn't you take steps to eliminate ED in your region (specifically TA) if it meant we could switch to FM?

I also agree with Maniac that the negatives to police should have been under Democracy... we should already be refraining from the use of military force to supress our discontents. I'd like to think that we are, but the fact of the matter is that there are many citizens that would be drones right now were it not for the military units in their bases. I'll just hope its the sense of security that placates them rather than more forceful influences.

About social justice and such, though: I think the numbers clearly show that our people, on the whole, will be much happier in FM 40/20/40 than in Green 50/0/50. 8 more drones, sure (4 from military deployment, mind you), but 29 more talents! Its hard for me to accept that the people would experience increased suffering, in light of the fact that intellectual Golden Ages would start in several bases (more if governors tried for them).

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Cedayon
8 more drones, sure (4 from military deployment, mind you), but 29 more talents!

Disparity of income? To me, although that is an overall positive, it shows that the poor and underprivileged get marginalised and become poorer, and the rich and overprivileged become richer and more prosperous, as you would expect under FM. I believe in equality, so am prepared to forego a few Golden Ages to prevent the underprivileged from being marginalised and having such a low quality of life. I'm all for FM, if we can have everyone living above the poverty line. People dying of starvation, people without shelter, and people without access to education and healthcare is unnacceptable for any prosperous nation IMHO. We have the means to help these people, for our mutual benefit. We should be judged, at least in part, by how we treat the porrest citizens in our great nation.

[Method]

Originally posted by Cedayon
I have to agree with Drogue on this point: We don't need pops. I say this because we can increase the clean mineral limit with facilities. It'll just be slower.

well, facilities only take effect after the first pop. and IIRC, you only get worms at around the 3rd or 4th. so 2 or 3 pops is probably as many as i'd have (except maybe around mineral-enhancing facilities time) because after the first, i start with the tree farms.

[GeneralTacticus]

Why have pops, when you can not?

Because prevention is not necessary. The only two negatives of pops are worms and fungus; the worms can be dealt with using Empath Rovers, and the fungus is easy t get rid of with a little fungicide.

Tear gas, rubber bullets? Why does planned economy have anything to do with police state? We have no police state. All it means is nationalised industry, and the -5 Police rating is down to people not wanting their military to be out of bases, as they want to be safe, but not be paying for it; and the civil unrest caused by disparity of income. It is a very large strawman (misrepresentation to those who are not familiar to Archaic's arguments) of Planned to say that it enforces a police state, there are no more police than under FM. Police and economic system has absolutly nothing to do with each other, in the context of SMAC.

Where did I mention a police state? A Police State would imply a far more thorough system of repression. I'm talking about the fact that when we have Drone problems, the first reaction is to deploy riot police. Under FM, this will not happen, because riot police are not permitted.

But we don't need any pops, and we don't need a higher ED limit.

Are you serious!? With a higher ED limit, we can produce more minerals without inflicting the harm on Planet that you're so worried about.

Indeed. Obviously the -5 (or I would have given -3) Police should have been given to Democracy, not Free Market. It's a classical mistake which already dates back from Civ1, and is an example of the typical flawed American(/Anglosaxon?) doctrine that personal freedom is per definition linked to economic freedom.

I agree, actually, but that doesn't change the actual, in-game effects of each SE choice.

GT: Although you don't mind a few pops (neither do I), it's clear that many do... wouldn't you take steps to eliminate ED in your region (specifically TA) if it meant we could switch to FM?

If that was the only way we could get FM? Of course. IT's not as if it's that ahrd, and it will occur anturally anyway; it's just that unless we actually would go FM because we had no ED, I see no reason to get very worked up over it.

Disparity of income? To me, although that is an overall positive, it shows that the poor and underprivileged get marginalised and become poorer, and the rich and overprivileged become richer and more prosperous, as you would expect under FM.

Actually, I would argue that the poorer sections of society are merely left more free to express their grievances - remember, half of the extra Drones come from Pacifism, and the other half I would expect to come from bases in which military police have been withdrawn. They're not any worse off, just freer to demand an improvment of their lot, and less tolerant of us sending their friends and relatives out across the seas for decades on end.

I believe in equality, so am prepared to forego a few Golden Ages to prevent the underprivileged from being marginalised and having such a low quality of life.

Again, they haven't been left any poorer, they've just been given more leeway to express their unhappiness.

I'm all for FM, if we can have everyone living above the poverty line. People dying of starvation, people without shelter, and people without access to education and healthcare is unnacceptable for any prosperous nation IMHO.

Who said that any of that was going to happen? What do you think Doctors, Research Hospitals, Childrens' Creches, and the like are for?

well, facilities only take effect after the first pop. and IIRC, you only get worms at around the 3rd or 4th. so 2 or 3 pops is probably as many as i'd have (except maybe around mineral-enhancing facilities time) because after the first, i start with the tree farms.

We've already had at least 1 pop that produced worms,which was dealt with quite easily; given that we're all building Tree Farms, the problem isn't a huge one, especialy when the only areas affected ar TA and NS, both of which have the resources to deal with it (well, NS doesn't entirely, but it's much less vulnerable, and it does have a rover in the neighbourhood).

[Cedayon]

Originally posted by Drogue
I believe in equality, so am prepared to forego a few Golden Ages to prevent the underprivileged from being marginalised and having such a low quality of life.

I can identify with that. Knowing that there are still slums and starving/nearly-starving families out there would cheapen and dilute the victory of the additional happy people.

I'm all for FM, if we can have everyone living above the poverty line.

By this, do you mean no drones not caused by a military unit out of territory, or no drones at all (or something else)? This can be accomplished under FM given a little time. I'll go over each drone that appears under FM 40/20/40:
1 at New. Tass. : You govern this base, you probably already know that constructing a rec commons will deal with the drone in question.
1 at Term. Dogma : Under FM the currently worked fungus square produces nothing, turn that worker into a doctor and the drone is converted to a citizen.
2 at TBIBTU : They're due to the Trance Laser Skimship in the seas north of Hive Territory. These drones are not an indication of poor living conditions, but rather are concientious objectors to our military deployment. Pull back or scrap the ship, they're happy.
2 at Xanadu: Xanadu is extremely lacking in infrastructure as it is a relatively new base... There are going to be poverty problems in such a new base no matter what, we're trying to live in an extremely hostile environment and sometimes there just isn't enough to go around. The construction of a Rec Commons should do it, and a network node in addition would keep things good for a while to come.
1 at Ankh-Morpork: Extremely new base, build a rec commons when possible, and update the infrastructure as the base grows.
2 at Antioch: They're due to a Trance Laser Skimship just off Cape Storm. Same deal as TBIBTU.
1 at Concordia: Um, er... the base is HUGE ... With such a large population, problems can arise. Nonetheless, it's easily dealt with by converting one of the librarians into a doctor. In the long run a Research Hospital should add enough of a Psych bonus to more than deal with any forseeable drone problems.
1 at Crystalis: New base, needs a rec commons.

So in summary: Pull one ineffective worker off the field (TD), convert one librarian into a doctor (Concordia), construct 4 rec commons (New Tass., Xanadu, A-M, and Crystalis), and all that's left is the 4 drones from military deployment (and again, these ones aren't poor or suffering, they're just upset). If you want to get rid of those, speak with Herc

You might ask how we would maintain drone-less conditions... answer: infrastructure (facils and SPs). Infrastructure which is easier to build with more energy income for rushing. There's also doctors, and later empaths. Facils, SPs, and better specialists will all come with tech, and we'll also get tech faster under the FM proposal.

People dying of starvation, people without shelter, and people without access to education and healthcare is unnacceptable for any prosperous nation IMHO.

Agreed, and we can make sure there aren't any, as outlined above.

We have the means to help these people, for our mutual benefit. We should be judged, at least in part, by how we treat the porrest citizens in our great nation.

Agreed on both points. With FM we can generate enough wealth to provide for everyone. We could also do it with Green, I imagine, but there would be less to go around and thus a greater chance that some would have to go without... there's also the police issue, but I think that's already been illuminated.

[Cedayon]

Quick question: It's my understanding that "A 50%+ vote is needed to change the SE.". If the polls stay as they are (4-2-5, Green leading with ~44%), will we go Green or stay Planned?

[GeneralTacticus]

Stay Planned, I would imagine. If there's not enough support to change the status quo, it won't change.

[Cedayon]

And neither the FM nor the Green folk, who are the clear majority (combined), will get their way?

Ah the irony

[Kirov]

Voted Green. It's such a nice colour...

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Cedayon
Quick question: It's my understanding that "A 50%+ vote is needed to change the SE.". If the polls stay as they are (4-2-5, Green leading with ~44%), will we go Green or stay Planned?

Actually, it doesn't mean we stick. If there is a less than 50% vote for one, then the top two are polled against each other, and the highest taken from that. For instance, the poll at the moment would result in a run off between FM and Green, with the winner being what we change too.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Cedayon
Quick question: It's my understanding that "A 50%+ vote is needed to change the SE.". If the polls stay as they are (4-2-5, Green leading with ~44%), will we go Green or stay Planned?

Actually, it doesn't mean we stick. If there is a less than 50% vote for one, then the top two are polled against each other, and the highest taken from that. For instance, the poll at the moment would result in a run off between FM and Green, with the winner being what we change too.

The only two negatives of pops are worms and fungus

There is a third. Ice Cap Melting. Worms are much harder to deal with under FM, and Fungus is annoying, and involves more fungus time.

Are you serious!? With a higher ED limit, we can produce more minerals without inflicting the harm on Planet that you're so worried about.

Yes. We can produce more minerals with a higher limit, but that involves pops, which inflicts harm. We don't need any pops at all. And we do not need to produce more than the cxlean mineral level.

Who said that any of that was going to happen? What do you think Doctors, Research Hospitals, Childrens' Creches, and the like are for?

Under FM, they're for creating profit. At the moment, anyone can use them, under FM, they will be on a paying basis, and so poor people cannot afford them. We need education, housing, healthcare and food for everyone.

Where did I mention a police state?

They're not any worse off, just freer to demand an improvment of their lot, and less tolerant of us sending their friends and relatives out across the seas for decades on end.

If there is no police state, why are they freer to demand improvement? Just because the industry is Government controlled, does not mean that it is harder to improve things. Indeed, because it is done not for profit, but for the benefit of the people.

I would like to congratulate Cedayon. Not only has he provided much information, argued well, and given us other options, he has become a very good mediator. I like his idea above for in game, and only have RP arguments against that style.

[Archaic]

Originally posted by Drogue
There is a third. Ice Cap Melting. Worms are much harder to deal with under FM, and Fungus is annoying, and involves more fungus time.

We'd need massive eco-damage for that, and we'd never reach it.
Empath units, and trance defenders. *Yawn* Of course, you're overstating the worm "problem" anyway. You seem to think that having an eco-damage level of 6 in 1 base will mean we're going to be overwhelmed by worms.
Fungus can be taken away with fungicide. Besides, I thought you liked the fungus Mr. Green.

Originally posted by Drogue
Yes. We can produce more minerals with a higher limit, but that involves pops, which inflicts harm. We don't need any pops at all. And we do not need to produce more than the cxlean mineral level.

Yup, that's right. We can just turn ourselves into a technological backwater. Benifits of Higher Clean Mineral Limit > Negatives of Fungus Pops.

As for the "harm", check the SE election thread for my take on that.

Originally posted by Drogue
Under FM, they're for creating profit. At the moment, anyone can use them, under FM, they will be on a paying basis, and so poor people cannot afford them. We need education, housing, healthcare and food for everyone.

*COUGH* Public Services. *COUGH* 20% Psych. *COUGH* Welfare Spending. *COUGH*

Stop repeating your strawman of a Free Market and actually go economic theory. It's getting tiresome.

Originally posted by Drogue
If there is no police state, why are they freer to demand improvement? Just because the industry is Government controlled, does not mean that it is harder to improve things. Indeed, because it is done not for profit, but for the benefit of the people.

Let's see. Would it be because under the free market, military police aren't the norm as they are in our current economy? The statistics provided by Cedayon prove just what a big difference that makes. Because the industry is government controlled DOES make it harder to improve things. Why? Inefficiency and corruption. The rest you're saying there is good intentions. But the road to ruin was paved with those. Good intentions alone don't work.

[Pandemoniak]

Whatever we say, the people shall speak, and unlike during Archaic's term, he will be listened. The few from the privileged classes wont be able to dominate by any way the large and all powered masses of the people. We this time found an alternative to the heavy bureaucracy of planned, which gives us not only all the justice of a socialist system, but also will take our economy to its paradigm. For only the price of a reasonable growth instead of a balooning population, our empaths demonstrated that we'll be able to speak to Planet.