OFFICIAL : Economics

[Pandemoniak]

Here are the three choices :
Free Market : 40/20/40
Income : 173
Next tech : in 4 turns
Each tech : every 6 turns
Net research : 296.4
+2 Economy : +1 energy per square worked and per city
-5 Police : no police can be used, each military unit outside borders cause 2 unhappy citizens
-3 Planet : -2 production on fungus square, increase ecodamage

Planned : 50/00/50
Income : 111
Next tech : in 5 turns
Each tech : every 8 turns
Net research : 242.4
+1 Industry : mineral costs 10% cheaper
+2 Growth : +20% growth, makes a total of +6 with creches, ie popbooming
-2 Efficiency : increase waste and corruption, decrease cost of cities to be mind controlled

Green : psych allocations still to be voted
at 50/00/50
Income : 131
Next tech : 5 turns
Each tech : every 7 turns
Net research : 264
+2 Planet : can capture mindworms, decrease ecodamage
+2 Efficiency : decrease waste and corruption, increase cost of cities to be mind ctrolled
-2 Growth : brings us back to 0 (normal), +20% with childrens creches

I think Cedayon will post his own stats quite soon, I'll follow with th rest of the stats as soon as possible.

You have three days.

[Pandemoniak]

Go GREEN !

[DeathByTheSword]

i will not vote until engery for green is cleared up

[Pandemoniak]

Green energy allocation will be voted if Green passes, it is a tie and I wont make a decision between the two that were runnning up.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Pandemoniak
Go GREEN !

Have done.

Vote Green

[Cedayon]

These stats are as of the '35 save.

First, how our people and environment would fare under the proposed economies:
The format of the numbers is: (total pop)/(talents)/(citizens)/(drones)/(eco damage)/(specialists)
I omit the specialist field in the regional and grand totals.
Specialists are counted as normal citizens, in the specialists field I put the number and then the type, ie 2d for 2 doctors and 3l for 3 librarians. If there are doctors, and those doctors can be put back on the field without changing anything, I put (nc) in the field. I put (GA) after everything if there were no drones and more talents than civs (and the city's big enough to have a GA). In the FM column I marked if there were military units outside of territory that were causing drones, (1m) means 1 such military unit. (GA?) means I think a GA happens with those stats, but I'm not sure. The (d=GA) means a doctor would cause the conditions for a GA to be fulfilled. The *'s mean that doctor(s) and a remedy for the mil-out-of-territory drones would lead to a GA in those bases.

City        | Planned 50/0/50      | Green 50/0/50        | FM 40/20/40          |
------------|----------------------|----------------------|----------------------|
New Apolyton| 9/2/7/0/0/0          | Same as Planned      | 9/6/3/0/0/0 (GA)     |
TBIBTU      | 9/1/8/0/0/2t         | Same as Planned      | 9/3/4/2/0/2t (1m) *  |
Tacticus Ac.| 9/1/8/0/9/1t         | 9/2/7/0/3/1t         | 9/4/5/0/18/1t (d=GA) |
Antioch     | 9/1/8/0/0/2t         | Same as Planned      | 9/4/3/2/0/2t (1m) *  |
R. Total    | 36/5/31/0/9          | 36/6/30/0/3          | 36/17/15/4/18        |
------------|----------------------|----------------------|----------------------|              
Aurora      | 3/1/2/0/0/0          | Same as Planned      | Same as Planned      |
New Tass.   | 8/2/5/1/0/2d         | 8/2/6/0/0/2d         | 8/3/4/1/0/2d         |
Twin Peaks  | 2/1/1/0/0/0          | Same as Planned      | Same as Planned      |
Cyclops     | 3/1/2/0/0/0          | Same as Planned      | Same as Planned      |
UNMI        | 4/1/2/1/0/2d         | 4/1/3/0/0/2d         | Same as Green        |
R. Total    | 20/6/12/2/0          | 20/6/14/0/0          | 20/7/12/1/0          |
------------|----------------------|----------------------|----------------------|
Concordia   | 16/3/11/2/0/2l,3d    | 16/3/12/1/0/2l,3d    | 16/6/9/1/0/2l,3d     |
Pandemonium | 9/0/9/0/0/3l         | 9/1/8/0/0/3l         | 9/2/7/0/0/3l         |
Term. Dogma | 9/2/6/1/0/0          | 9/2/7/0/0/0          | 9/4/4/1/0/0          |
Sheathed Sw.| 9/2/6/1/0/2l         | 9/1/8/0/0/2l         | 9/2/7/0/0/2l         |
Valhalla    | 3/1/2/0/0/0          | Same as Planned      | 3/2/1/0/0/0  (GA?)   |
R. Total    | 46/8/34/4/0          | 46/8/37/1/0          | 46/16/28/2/0         |
------------|----------------------|----------------------|----------------------|
New Suez    | 9/2/6/1/3/1d         | 9/2/6/1/1/1d         | 9/5/4/0/6/1d(nc) (GA)|
Mysidia     | 8/2/5/1/0/2d         | 8/2/6/0/0/2d         | 8/3/5/0/0/2d         |
Crystalis   | 4/1/2/1/0/1d         | 4/1/3/0/0/1d         | 4/2/1/1/0/1d         |
Trans. Acad.| 3/1/2/0/0/0          | Same as Planned      | Same as Planned      |
UNRC        | 2/1/1/0/0/0          | Same as Planned      | Same as Planned      |
R. Total    | 26/7/16/3/3          | 26/7/18/1/1          | 26/12/13/1/6         |
------------|----------------------|----------------------|----------------------|
Zan. Gate   | 6/1/5/0/0/1d(nc)     | 6/2/4/0/0/1d(nc)     | 6/3/3/0/0/1d(nc)(GA?)|
UNPD        | 9/2/6/1/0/0          | 9/2/7/0/0/0          | 9/4/5/0/0/0          |
Deus Ex M.  | 9/2/7/0/0/1d         | 9/2/7/0/0/1d(nc)     | 9/3/6/0/0/1d         |
Xanadu      | 5/1/3/1/0/0          | 5/2/2/1/0/0          | 5/2/1/2/0/0          |
R.Total     | 29/6/21/2/0          | 29/8/20/1/0          | 29/12/15/2/0         |
------------|----------------------|----------------------|----------------------|
Ankh-Morpork| 3/1/2/0/0/0          | Same as Planned      | 3/1/1/1/0/0          |
Metropolis  | 2/1/1/0/0/0          | Same as Planned      | Same as Planned      |
------------|----------------------|----------------------|----------------------|
G. Total:   | 162/34/117/11/12     | 162/37/122/3/4       | 162/66/85/11/24      |
------------|----------------------|----------------------|----------------------|

And a second table for the more economic side of things: The format of the numbers is (minerals)/(total energy)/(ECs)/(Research)
Minerals, of course, don't change from setting to setting, but I included them anyway.

City        | Planned 50/0/50      | Green 50/0/50        | FM 40/20/40          |
------------|----------------------|----------------------|----------------------|
New Apolyton| 25/16/17/18          | Same as Planned      | 25/ 29/ 24/22        |
TBIBTU      | 13/15/26/12          | Same as Planned      | 13/ 21/ 28/14        |
Tacticus Ac.| 27/23/28/18          | 27/24/30/18          | 27/ 32/ 32/20        |
Antioch     | 15/15/26/12          | 15/17/28/14          | 15/ 23/ 30/14        |
R. Total    | 80/69/97/60          | 80/72/101/62         | 80/105/114/70        |
------------|----------------------|----------------------|----------------------|
Aurora      | 10/ 4/ 2/ 2          | 10/ 5/ 2/ 3          | 10/ 8/ 3/ 3          |
New Tass.   | 11/ 9/ 4/ 8          | 11/10/ 5/ 8          | 11/16/ 6/11          |
Twin Peaks  |  4/ 2/ 1/ 1          |  4/ 3/ 1/ 2          |  4/ 4/ 2/ 1          |
Cyclops     |  4/ 3/ 1/ 2          |  4/ 5/ 2/ 3          |  4/ 6/ 2/ 3          |
UNMI        |  2/ 6/ 3/ 3          | Same as Planned      |  2/ 9/ 4/ 3          |
R. Total    | 31/24/11/16          | 31/29/13/19          | 31/43/17/21          |
------------|----------------------|----------------------|----------------------|
Concordia   | 19/17/12/23          | 19/20/15/24          | 19/29/18/26          |
Pandemonium |  9/12/ 6/23          |  9/14/ 7/24          |  9/16/ 6/24          |
Term. Dogma | 17/ 8/ 4/ 6          | 17/10/ 5/ 8          | 17/18/ 7/11          |
Sheathed Sw.|  8/ 5/ 2/14          |  8/ 7/ 3/15          |  8/13/ 5/17          |
Valhalla    |  5/ 5/ 2/ 3          |  5/ 7/ 3/ 4          |  5/ 9/ 4/ 3          |
R. Total    | 58/47/26/69          | 58/58/33/75          | 58/85/40/81          | 
------------|----------------------|----------------------|----------------------|
New Suez    | 26/16/16/12          | 26/17/16/14          | 26/24/20/14          |
Mysidia     | 16/ 8/ 6/ 4          | 16/ 9/ 6/ 5          | 16/16/ 9/ 7          |
Crystalis   |  6/ 8/ 4/ 4          |  6/ 9/ 4/ 5          |  6/11/ 4/ 5          |
Trans. Acad.|  3/ 3/ 1/ 2          | Same as Planned      |  3/ 6/ 2/ 3          |
UNRC        |  0/ 1/ 0/ 1          |  0/ 2/ 1/ 1          |  0/ 4/ 2/ 1          |
R. Total    | 51/36/27/23          | 51/40/28/27          | 51/61/37/29          |
------------|----------------------|----------------------|----------------------|
Zan. Gate   | 14/10/ 8/ 8          | Same as Planned      | 14/14/ 9/ 8          |
UNPD        | 17/17/12/14          | 17/18/14/14          | 17/28/17/17          |
Deus Ex M.  | 18/ 9/ 4/ 8          | 18/11/ 5/ 9          | 18/21/ 8/14          |
Xanadu      |  8/ 4/ 2/ 2          |  8/ 6/ 3/ 3          |  8/ 9/ 4/ 3          |
R. Total    | 57/40/26/32          | 57/45/30/34          | 57/72/38/42          |
------------|----------------------|----------------------|----------------------|
Ankh-Morpork|  3/ 1/ 0/ 1          |  3/ 2/ 1/ 1          |  3/ 3/ 1/ 1          |
Metropolis  |  4/ 2/ 1/ 1          |  4/ 4/ 2/ 2          |  4/ 5/ 2/ 2          |
------------|----------------------|----------------------|----------------------|
G. Total:   | 284/219/188/202      | 284/250/208/220      | 284/374/249/246      |
------------|----------------------|----------------------|----------------------|

I'm not planning to do stats for the alternate Green proposal, but I will if it is necessary.

[Cedayon]

I personally voted for FM 40/20/40 because our people would be happier (more talents, same number of drones as planned, and without police repression), and because our economic and technological standing would be greatly strengthened. The increase in eco-damage only applies to the two bases that actually generate eco-damage, and I'm sure that could be stopped if it needed to be (for now we need some pops, but perhaps those can be foregone).

Perhaps Green with Psych spending would acomplish a smaller (unless it was like 20/60/20) degree of happiness, but it would harm our economy, tech, and growth (no pop booms even with CCs and GAs, I think).

I think I will do a talent/citizen/drone analysis for Green with Psych spending, to be fair.

For now I ask this: FM 40/20/40 generates 8 more drones (4 from military units outside of territory) and 20 more eco-damage points than Green 50/0/50. Is this not worth the additional 29 talents, 41 ECs/turn, and 26 lab points/turn? Not to mention the Golden Ages which would only improve the situation...

edit: I tried Green 40/20/40, the final total for the first category is 162/59/102/1/4. I didn't bother with economic data because I knew it would be rather bad. There's also the matter that G 4/2/4 isn't an option even in the current debate. 4/0/6 doesn't seem a whole lot different than 5/0/5, to me.

[Method]

yes, yes it is worth it. free market is the way to go

[GeneralTacticus]

Obviouisly, I agree with Cedayon and TKG.

[Archaic]

Indeed it is. Any negatives are by far outweighed by the advantages.

[GeneralTacticus]

And just to pre-empt any arguments on the negativeswhich FM has compared to Green:

1) Ecodamage: Yes, ecodamage under FM is six time higher than that of Green. However, considering that everyone is making Tree Farms a priority, for obvious reasons, this total will only continue to decline, and if we experience a few more pops, so what? That will just reduce our ED total even further, and we have (in Centralis at least, and ED isn't very widespread anyway) the resources to turn any worm uprising into charcoal.

2) Drones/Social Justice: It's true, again, that FM has more Drones than Green; however, these extra drones are due to our use of military units outside our territory, and thus cannot be attributed to people being unhappy about the Free Market, just having an outlet for their displeasure with our military deployments.

And on the issue of 'social justice', which seems to be quite a popular anti-FM argument: just how much social justice can there be in a system whose first answer to discontent is rubber bullets and tear gas?

[Cedayon]

Just to back up GTs points:

1. Eco-damage: New Suez's ecodamage could be eliminated by moving the worker on 23,95 to 26,94, which would reduce minerals by 1, and leave the other two as is (there may be a better option, as well). TA's ED could be eliminated either by removing 3 minerals worth of workers, or simply ceasing to crawl the mine at 10,88. If those two changes were made there would be no ecodamage (according to the game) at all, even under FM. I'm not sure I'd advocate those changes as fungal pops can sometimes be useful in increasing the clean mineral limit, but I think we could do enough of that with TFs/HFs/CPs/etc (btw, has it been decided whether we can use the semi-exploit of building/selling/rebuilding of, say Centauri Preserves, to increase the clean mineral limit ad infinitum?).

2. Drones: The increase in Drones under FM comes from the -5 police (afaik). Tell me, though, what do you think happens to a drone who is made into a citizen because of police in the base? Is the source of their discontent really dealt with? Are they really content again? Is it the sense of security from having police around? Or are they just being suppressed by military force? Personally I think the would-be drones should be allowed to express their discontent without worrying about being silenced by the police, except in cases of extreme necessity. I also wish to add that the permanent solutions to helping the drones, in the form of facilities and SPs that we can build with new tech, will be reached and implemented faster under FM (faster research speed and more ECs to rush stuff).

[Drogue]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
And just to pre-empt any arguments on the negativeswhich FM has compared to Green

I won't try and argue much this time, I'm tired, and people have heard my arguments before (And I think we'll win anyway ) so I'll agree to disagree on this. However, I would like to address two points:

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
and if we experience a few more pops, so what?

Why have pops, when you can not?

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
And on the issue of 'social justice', which seems to be quite a popular anti-FM argument: just how much social justice can there be in a system whose first answer to discontent is rubber bullets and tear gas?

Tear gas, rubber bullets? Why does planned economy have anything to do with police state? We have no police state. All it means is nationalised industry, and the -5 Police rating is down to people not wanting their military to be out of bases, as they want to be safe, but not be paying for it; and the civil unrest caused by disparity of income. It is a very large strawman (misrepresentation to those who are not familiar to Archaic's arguments) of Planned to say that it enforces a police state, there are no more police than under FM. Police and economic system has absolutly nothing to do with each other, in the context of SMAC.

[Maniac]

Indeed. Obviously the -5 (or I would have given -3) Police should have been given to Democracy, not Free Market. It's a classical mistake which already dates back from Civ1, and is an example of the typical flawed American(/Anglosaxon?) doctrine that personal freedom is per definition linked to economic freedom.

[Method]

Originally posted by Drogue
Why have pops, when you can not?

because then the eco-damage limit doesn't increase